For those who want proof of the exodus

[Drich]

Leave it to Drippy to argue the good morality of slavery.

No dummy! "Drich is arguing" that we all need to hold the companies we keep in business that use slaves to pay them and treat them better. this has nothing to do with the crap ever changing standard of morality. We do this by acknowledging slave laborers are alive and well and are responsible for our current way of life! Without them society, western society would fail.

[The Grand Nudger]

Stop.  

Accept that you have given slavery your stamp of approval.  Not shitty working conditions.  Not low wages.  Slavery.


There's an easy solution to this. You can simply concede what we all know by now. You do not actually condone slavery, and you cannot reconcile gods position on the subject. You don't know why god condoned it...you disagree with god in that regard. This is an argument that you don't wan't to win, so stop trying so hard.

An admission that god is, at times, inexplicable to you and not in lock-step with your own notions of equity or morality will not weaken your position of faith. There's no need for you to be an asshat that you aren't..particularly when you could just be the asshat that you are.

[Cyberman]

If your going to be a self-righteous douche and claim the high ground while ignoring history, I'd like you to go ahead and list all of the other 'morally right' things society currently deems immoral/illegal. Where does underage sex, incest, and sex with animals rank in your version of 'always been moral?' What if all parties give their consent?

Well they don't rank in it, of course. Which is why I expressly used the word consexual".

Which you acknowledged while simultaneously ignoring:

After all you did say:

Consensual sexuality is never immoral by nature,

What part of that qualifier is causing you trouble? I know words are hard for you.

[Drich]

Again since you seem to be of the petros school of understanding, I will break it down further:

Yes, please do, continue until we can find some spec of sense in all of this  inanity.  

Your life is filled with food and products that were grown assembled or produced by people who make little to nothing/can not support their lives for what money they make, and therefore are often indebted to the company they work for to subsidize their basic needs, which means they can not leave their jobs. This is not an example of a chattle slave but a slave none the less by definition. (A person held in servitude; one that is completely subservient to another)

-and..what.....does someone else's predatory business model, which is not slavery to begin with, have to do with me...and whether or not I condone slavery?  I'm left wondering, additionally..when you snuck into my house and took inventory?  How you managed to determine the provenance of my possessions?

Your fantasies about joseph are useless in this regard, and would be irrelevant even if they were actually true, so I think we can let that dog lie.

Your whole blind self-righteous attitude is what I am talking about. Just because you retitled the term slavery with names like sweat shop laborer or migrant worker does not mean those people are not forced to work in those places. a lot of times the only reason those people work as they do is because they were simply born in the wrong part of the world or to the wrong family. How many kids in Korea do you think aspire to work for .32 cents an hour 16 hours aday/till the work shift quota is filled?
Made to kneel on rice with hands outstretched or outright beaten if they miss a deadline.. Just so you can have your fav running shoe.

To which I want to point out these are not even considered to be 'bad' conditions. their are far worse places to work in the world and the closer one gets to the raw material given products are made from the worse it gets.. Google India leather production. They are using a 2000 year old facility that reeks of death (rotting meat) and chemically treats the leather in big vats that what look like slaves from 2000 years ago stomp around in. which destroys their bodies. this same leather is sought after world wide to go in the best of the best designer shoes/products. If I remember correctly those people were making less than .50 cents a day.

Or google sulfur mining in that same region or ship scrapping. those two products can be found in just about EVERYTHING modern life demands!

Maybe you should explain to me how you (as the rest of us) are not driving a market that not only condones the use of slaves but rewards it by letting them make record prophets with little to no oversite if we are all tied to the products and raw material directly produced by the people?

[Drich]

Again, Not all slaves were treated badly I gave examples from the bible and modern times. Why don't you try addressing the points I made rather than speaking about the stereotype your comfortable with?

Also the fact that I'm giving you points about slavery you are not familiar with should indicate to you that I have indeed 'done my research.' your turn.

Ahem citation please.. because you know slaves were beaten killed and even  raped etc. 
Slaves are not treated like human beings they are treated less than human.

go back and re read what I have already said I gave you examples!!! I also posted an article where Nike still employs slaves, they just treat them marginally better than every other slave shop in those regions and people are lining up to get jobs there!!!

[Drich]

If your going to be a self-righteous douche and claim the high ground while ignoring history, I'd like you to go ahead and list all of the other 'morally right' things society currently deems immoral/illegal. Where does underage sex, incest, and sex with animals rank in your version of 'always been moral?' What if all parties give their consent?

Well they don't rank in it, of course. Which is why I expressly used the word consexual".

Which you acknowledged while simultaneously ignoring:

After all you did say:

What part of that qualifier is causing you trouble? I know words are hard for you.

So in 5 to 10 years if pop culture drops any age requirements for sexual intercourse, does having sex with what would be considered a underage person now, be immoral or a moral act?

Is it a moral or immoral act now?

[The Grand Nudger]

Your whole blind self-righteous attitude is what I am talking about. Just because you retitled the term slavery with names like sweat shop laborer or migrant worker does not mean those people are not forced to work in those places. a lot of times the only reason those people work as they do is because they were simply born in the wrong part of the world or to the wrong family. How many kids in Korea do you think aspire to work for .32 cents an hour 16 hours aday/till the work shift quota is filled?
Made to kneel on rice with hands outstretched or outright beaten if they miss a deadline.. Just so you can have your fav running shoe.

Not much of sweatshop man or rice eater myself (just to cover all bases, lol).  Still chuckling that you won't acknowledge the difference between slavery and substandard working conditions. You think I have a favorite running shoe?

To which I want to point out these are not even considered to be 'bad' conditions. their are far worse places to work in the world and the closer one gets to the raw material given products are made from the worse it gets.. Google India leather production. They are using a 2000 year old facility that reeks of death (rotting meat) and chemically treats the leather in big vats that what look like slaves from 2000 years ago stomp around in. which destroys their bodies. this same leather is sought after world wide to go in the best of the best designer shoes/products. If I remember correctly those people were making less than .50 cents a day.

Don't own any leather.

Or google sulfur mining in that same region or ship scrapping. those two products can be found in just about EVERYTHING modern life demands!

Not sitting on a pile of sulfur from those mines, or any scrap ships.

Maybe you should explain to me how you (as the rest of us) are not driving a market that not only condones the use of slaves but rewards it by letting them make record prophets with little to no oversite if we are all tied to the products and raw material directly produced by the people?

See above.

You condone slavery..and I do not. I tried to be reasonable with you, to allow that you're tying yourself into a knot for no good reason, but you've been insistent. I guess this is just the fruit by which I should know the tree. I don't know what else to tell you bud. Not sure why you launched off into any of the above before answering my earlier question. When did you sneak into my house and take inventory?

[dyresand]

Ahem citation please.. because you know slaves were beaten killed and even  raped etc. 
Slaves are not treated like human beings they are treated less than human.

go back and re read what I have already said I gave you examples!!! I also posted an article where Nike still employs slaves, they just treat them marginally better than every other slave shop in those regions and people are lining up to get jobs there!!!

Again slaves weren't treated humanly.....

[Drich]

[quote='Drich' pid='1173191' dateline='1452791556']
This is not true.

Your framing these acts through the lens of modern morality. from your current vantage point you can say A was never ok or b always was despite what the people who live in a society thought 50 years ago.

 We know this because 50 years ago their were laws on the book identifying homosexuality as being a criminal offense, therefore an immoral act in most states. where as now it is legal for gays to get married. Their was a paradigm shift in morality concerning homosexuality in this country.

If your going to be a self-righteous douche and claim the high ground while ignoring history, I'd like you to go ahead and list all of the other 'morally right' things society currently deems immoral/illegal. Where does underage sex, incest, and sex with animals rank in your version of 'always been moral?' What if all parties give their consent? After all you did say:

I think most of us don't care one way or another about incest.
Animals cannot give consent.

google 'donkey show' their more than one way to 'skin a donkey.' (Certain things you can't un-see/wasn't always a Christian) and yes the donkey was giving more than just consent.

Children can, but it wouldn't be considered informed consent since children really don't understand/grasp things (even when they think they do).  That's why we don't let them vote, make important financial decisions, etc.

says pop culture currently. What happens in 10 years when 100 studies come out that contradict your 'old way of thinking.' People like you have been conditioned to accept 'proof' in a given format without question. what if society decides to place 'proof' in that format so that generation has unfettered access to the next? where is morality then? won't the same arguments you use to defend incest or homosexuality be used to defend sex with children? what if the find a pedophile gene? will it be wrong to imprison someone who 'can't help what their genitals want?'

Regarding biblical slavery, your entire "It still happens today and you condone it!" show is merely a transparent way to equivocate.  If we condone slavery in the 21st century, then we have no right to criticize the slavery mentioned in the bible.  Except, we don't actively condone it.  It's a fact of life that, given how globalized capitalism works, individual people cannot do much about it because, as you say, our entire culture is built upon cheaply produced goods.  And we have no viable second option.

this is the 'afluenza" defense.. You are born so privileged you can't help but to live on the backs of slaves Oh, my.. Now I feel disgust and ashamed for you.

Ok, it would be one thing to say I don't know of any other way to live and if you are not Amish you'd be telling the truth.. But here's the problem sport: You are LIVING ON THE BACKS OF SLAVES And Rather Than Acknowledge It You Change Their Job Titles So You Can Pretend To Be Righteous!!! Rather than Tell the TRUTH and Accept your Role so We Can Demand High Profit companies like Nike to Take the 150.00 Profit they make off a single pair of shoes they sell us and double a slave's wage from 1.25 a day to 3.00...

How do you not understand by pretend to be 'moral' by denouncing all slavery and then ignore how slavery impacts your life for the better you are making things worse for modern slaves than what was going on 200 years ago to the 'black man?'

So, no, it's not that we accept (as in approve, morally support) slavery.  It's that we're not in a position to change it much.

So pretend it is not there, and crapping all over someone who not only admits their role in it, but demands you acknowledge your own role in modern slaver.. Is your ONLY Option?

This is no different than drinking or drugs or any other self destructive behavior outside of it having a major societal impact.. In that we must first collectively admit we have a problem before a solution can be found..

Your role your unwillingness to admit how much your life depends on modern slavery is the reason modern slaves have it worse than those who came before. think about it. We live better than kings ever did through out history. Even our poor working class have better access to food, medical, Mod cons, housing, protection from the elements and access to information. All of which is potentially available to modern slaves IF the self-righteous would simply own up to how their lives DEPEND on slavery.

You'll note, however, that there is a global push to improve working conditions and worker safety around the world.

lol you didn't read the Nike articles did you?
Their is only a push for top tier companies. Raw material manufactures and food production are living/working in conditions that slaves did hundreds of years ago, but have gotten worse with all the new chemical treatments that they are now exposed to that they would not have been 100's of years ago.

 The notion that one can beat their slave/employee is considered grossly immoral by most, and that's why we take issue with that particular portion of the bible.

NIKE Factory Supervisors up until the last few years did this very thing!!! IT Only Changed When People Acknowledged what Nike was doing. Which is not Happening outside the big brands! This would change if people like you woke the f' up and stopped pretending to be better than the bible.

Your fav brand of running shoe tells you a different story! The bible put limitations on beatings, your shoe company did not have limits outside those the one doing the beating decided to place on himself.

 

As you noted with laws regarding homosexuality, morality is subjective and changes over time.  And that's why we scoff at the idea of the bible being a font of objective morality.  Because objective clearly morality doesn't exist.  Morality is never static.  It's, instead, based on ideas of equity and fairness, and those are always fluid.

So, it really doesn't matter if ancient Jews felt that it was okay to beat slaves so long as they didn't die.  Generally speaking, we're beyond that in thought if not practice, and the practice is largely out of our control due to a variety of factors.

but again, Nike shows it is not out of your control if you accept responsibility!

[Drich]

go back and re read what I have already said I gave you examples!!! I also posted an article where Nike still employs slaves, they just treat them marginally better than every other slave shop in those regions and people are lining up to get jobs there!!!

Again slaves weren't treated humanly.....

citation