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Islam and its History and Impact of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH)
#11
RE: Islam and its History and Impact of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH)
(January 6, 2016 at 1:42 pm)robvalue Wrote: I know a fair about the bible now, but not about the Quran, so this is very interesting.

The Quran isn't as interesting as the interests in it's wake. It never was about religion. It was about one set of traders, one trading city, trying to get sway over the other.

Religion is just a tool. Back then and now. It's used ot motivate the infringed masses, but it's not what the ones calling the shots have in mind.
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#12
RE: Islam and its History and Impact of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH)
(January 6, 2016 at 1:40 pm)abaris Wrote:
(January 6, 2016 at 1:38 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: The core of Muslims during that era was natives of Mecca; actually. Mohammed himself was from Mecca.
Actually, the fight was between relatives, family. Muslims had to fight their own families.

Yes, but to enforce trading as well as political interests. I'm arguing for looking beyond religion, since religion is always a cover for some deeper interest.

It was never about trading. Mecca was full of injustice, so as ancient Arabia, the world was rough and harsh, people in Mecca used to burry their kids alive if they turned out to be females (it was shameful in their customs), very few could read & write, the city was full of poor people who couldn't find anybody to feed them,  orphans were too many due to the civil wars between the tribes, let alone the slavery.

Mohammed peace be upon him, offered a salvation through the religion he preached. People started to leave Mecca and go to where Mohammed is staying. Africa, then Medina.

Yeah, the issues always had a political/economical perspective, but the solutions that God gave through Islam & Mohammed were the proof of how realistic the message is.
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#13
RE: Islam and its History and Impact of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH)
The pedo-prophet is no more real than jesus or any of the other shit that humanity has invented over the centuries.
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#14
RE: Islam and its History and Impact of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH)
(January 6, 2016 at 2:04 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:
(January 6, 2016 at 1:40 pm)abaris Wrote: Yes, but to enforce trading as well as political interests. I'm arguing for looking beyond religion, since religion is always a cover for some deeper interest.

It was never about trading. Mecca was full of injustice, so as ancient Arabia, the world was rough and harsh, people in Mecca used to burry their kids alive if they turned out to be females (it was shameful in their customs), very few could read & write, the city was full of poor people who couldn't find anybody to feed them,  orphans were too many due to the civil wars between the tribes, let alone the slavery.

Mohammed peace be upon him, offered a salvation through the religion he preached. People started to leave Mecca and go to where Mohammed is staying. Africa, then Medina.

Yeah, the issues always had a political/economical perspective, but the solutions that God gave through Islam & Mohammed were the proof of how realistic the message is.

That's already inserting woo into secular business. Full of injustice, according to who? Mohammeds followers. Who wanted to get their share.
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#15
RE: Islam and its History and Impact of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH)
But you can't hold him to today's standards. That would be objective morality. Oh wait...
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#16
RE: Islam and its History and Impact of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH)
First of all, if you're going to be so ritualistic as to say (PBUH) all the time, how about using the Unicode character for it? ﷺ

(January 6, 2016 at 9:37 am)yukapuka Wrote: Firstly the majority of the Arab people were a desolate people, heavily and completely isolated and ignorant of even the outside world, they lived in the desert in very tough conditions that probably most other nations would not have hung around very long due to the scarcity of water and food in general and most other nations didnt even bother to have any relations with them trade or otherwise, they were as described by one English author


I have to cast doubt on that claim. It's apparently not true according to the Quran. There are two Iyah that imply that the people of Mecca, at least, were not isolated. All of my translations will be Abdullah Yusuf Ali and I will not be referring to any Hadith (I don't like the Hadith).

Quran 2:127 "And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (With this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-knowing."

and Quran 3:96 "The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka: Full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings:"

While it is true that nobody bothered to conquer (southern) Arabia*, the Quran claims that Mecca is an ancient city (it's nowhere near as old as the Quran claims) and the first place of worship. In particular Quran 3:96 claims that the original Mosque was built at Bakkah (Mecca) which would make it older than all Churches, Synagogues and any other place of worship you can think of.

*You'd think that Mecca being an important place of pilgrimage for thousands of years, as the two Iyah claim, would give empires reason to conquer it, so they could control the flow of money into Mecca, but no. The reason is Mecca didn't exist until shortly before the time of Muhammad because there is no archaeology to support the claims that the Quran makes about it.

But let's assume the Quran is actually correct, for the sake of argument, and that Mecca is this ancient city that people have gone on pilgrimage to for many thousands of years. How can you claim that the Arabs were isolated? People mingle during pilgrimage. They will inevitably talk to each other whilst in Mecca and, therefore, facilitate the flow of ideas across all of Arabia. Your assumption  that the Arabs were isolated is simply not true if we assume the Quran is correct about history (which it is not).

(January 6, 2016 at 9:37 am)yukapuka Wrote: 4. Sabines. They worshipped the stars.

Second, the Sabines lived in Italy, so I assume you mean Sabians. Funny that you should say they worship the stars. Quran 2:62 claims that the Sabians will go to Jannah:

"Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."

However, Quran 41:37 says this:
"Among His Signs are the Night and the Day, and the Sun and the Moon. Do not prostrate to the sun and the moon, but prostrate to Allah, Who created them, if it is Him ye wish to serve."

This verse mentions the sun specifically. And the stars are suns also. So, if we extrapolate, the Sabians are clearly committing Shirk - the worst sin (if they worship the stars, as you claimed). You claimed the Sabians commit Shirk yet, oddly, Quran 2:62 claims that the Sabians will go to Jannah. Who is right? I thought Shirk was the ultimate, unforgivable, sin?

Quran 4:48 "Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed."

Quran 4:48 surely contradicts Quran 2:62, especially since Quran 41:37 mentions star worship as a specific sin (i.e. Shirk). Given what Quran 4:48 says, even if a Sabian was to recite Shahada, they will not go to Jannah despite what Quran 2:62 says. Why is there this crucial error in the Quran? How can you explain that away?


Quran 4:48 is interesting for another reason as well. It mentions something that Allah clearly cannot do. Which is another contradiction.

Quran 35:44 says that Allah is all powerful (Allah can do anything):

"Do they not travel through the earth, and see what was the End of those before them,- though they were superior to them in strength? Nor is Allah to be frustrated by anything whatever in the heavens or on earth: for He is All-Knowing. All-Powerful."

But Allah is unable to forgive Shirk, so that means there are things which Allah cannot do. Even if we exclude Shirk, does the verse mean Allah can lie or mislead? If Allah can't lie, then Allah can't be all-powerful, as the Iyah claims.


(January 6, 2016 at 9:37 am)yukapuka Wrote: Arabian people where cut off from the rest of the world with illiteracy and the problems and ignorance and the hot heat of the desert that isolated the people from going forward in any of those directions as death shadoweded them in all direction, from society and from the harsh weather and their own ignorance

Being illiterate doesn't mean you're completely ignorant. You can still acquire knowledge. And, as I said, the Quran asserts that Mecca is at least as old as Abraham, so would have always (according to the Quran) been pretty important (i.e. not isolated as you claim).

That's all I got for now. Thanks for for reading. I'm sure there will much disagreement to come.

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#17
RE: Islam and its History and Impact of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH)
To all the people who commented regarding questions about the Quran and history etc i will not be addressing them here at the moment, we can open a separate topic and discuss them there or perhaps after i finish writing the complete set of history then i will address them

Okay back to our history lesson


Hopefully you can look at this subjectively and honestly as a person living in a very difficult time and seeing what that person was able to produce by his ideas and his vision , something that not one of us will be able to mimic even a tenth of, long after we are dead, Islam will continue , Quran will continue, his name will continue etc and despite not being with the people of today

The only problem is what you have heard is not entirely true, and you need to see what really happened and why he was such a successful and influential and superb unique individual

Again back to the beginnings

Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) dealt with one of the most difficult and arrogant and immoral evil people of his time and he even managed to completely change them , it might be hard to believe this but they were even worse then ISIS because even ISIS dont kill their own daughters just because they are born female

People need to realize that 1400 years ago, there was no internet, no mobile phones, there was no electricity, no hospitals, no knowledge of any kind of medicine or knowledge about something simple like the flu , no security, no government, no law, no certainty of any kind and for the Arabs,  life was even worse then the usual medieval European, there was no water either it was very scarce, there was no food it was very scarce , there was a period of life of the Prophet where he would go for up to a month without food just one date at a time every few days, and this would last for almost a year and sometimes even longer , what he ate was absolutely minimal to say the least, he lived in absolute poverty

Tomorrow for the Arab was a long way away , today for the arab was very dangerous , all kinds of things could kill you and perhaps many of them did not look forward to life in the harsh desert and lifestyle that they were brought up in but couldnt do anything about, during the day he was at risk , during the night eh was at risk, at any moment any can kill you to steal what little you have or what they thought you might have had , food was really scarce

People didnt have time or concerns with things like knowledge or what was going on contemporary in other parts of the world or things like science, all they knew was maybe within a 1 km radius of their surroundings and it was all to do with food , water and survival and war

People had SERIOUS problems , no certainty of any kind, once the sun went down all kinds of fears came over the people, fears of mythical stories , fears of night robbers(as you know the famous Aladdin and the 40 thieves story captures the reality of life as an Arab at night ) people grouped up in "tribes" and went to conquer each other for basics thing , and because of that there was no law, there was no governance, there was no knowledge to interest in knowledge or reading or writing or books

When your life is in danger every second, you dont have time or concerns to learn or know or create or organise anything, you cant get together with people and make a change especially when the people are stone cold killers who can easily kill their own daughters , they wont have a problem killing somebody they seen as a threat or competitor

This was the surrounding that Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) was in and this was something which to anyone else might have seemed next to impossible to change , especially from somebody who hated violence, who also was looked down upon for having a daughter(his daughter Fatimah(PBUH) was his first surviving child whom he of course kept and loved very deeply

they used to make fun of him for having a daughter saying that he was cursed, and on top of the fact that he didnt participate in battles even those concerning his own tribe, people looked at him as not a strong male capable of surviving their strong and highly demanding lifestyles

Furthermore he challenged the status quo, he demanded equality for the female and male, he demanded that all slaves be freed and that they are free men, he demanded that arab and non arab and blacks and whites are equal before God , he demanded that everyone stop worshipping the hundreds of gods  (which were made out of things like dates which were later eaten) and criticised this concept of Arabs eating their gods when they got hungry and desperate

He demanded the 360 god statues in teh Ka'ba be removed and everyone unites to worship one God , he told the aristocrats(which mainly made their money from selling these hundred of gods to these arabs who were afraid the harsh environment around them looking for any hope to save them hence falling for the aristocratic tricks and buying these false gods in turn making the aristocrats rich and themselves extremely poor) he demanded the rich help the poor, he was preaching against their traditions of killing the daughters and mistreating the female in general

but as you can imagine the macho Arab man, rejected all of his propositions and they ridiculed him alot, they didnt see him as  threat because he was everything they were not, he had a daughter child, he openly showed affection towards her which was something that shocked them that he was loving and caring while they were harsh and commanding to their children , they looked at him as an effeminate man

when he used to come, they looked down upon so much that they used to order their children to stone him and pelt him in order to humiliate him by having him beaten down by young children being a man himself

but of course despite that the general average arab rejected all of his ideas and his completely going against all their traditions and lifestyle changing and shaking the very foundations of everything they knew and took for granted his message did reach and fall upon the many ears of those who were greatly suffering in that environment

the poor, the slaves, the blacks, the females, all heard his message loud and clear and they loved the sound of his message, it related to them completely and resonated with them because they had never heard such talk before about the female being equal to the male, about the slave being free, about the arabs and non arabs and black equal before God

and his message was the first of all nations 1400 years ago, he was the first to call for equality for all men and women , something that was unheard of in general

unity of all men and women under one God , the rich not being better then the poor or the poor not being better then the rich, and that they are al equal, except in high morals was what distinguished them from one another , the one who was better was the one who treated the other better , that was the only ones who were considered better then the other according to him and his teachings

he emanated manners, again something the Arabs didnt know about, they would insult him and ridicule him and he would not insult back or ridicule back, he would return evil with love and compassion

when they would come to him cursing him and making fun of him, he would try his best to help them , he returned all evil with kindness (kill them with kindness) as the old saying goes

however that didnt stop the arab from plotting and planning against him, they obviously began to notice that he was getting the ears of the slaves and women and non arabs , he started to change their minds and they were starting to believe that they were not scrap but individuals with human rights, and they started to demand these rights

of course and they were met with death, torture, and great opposition, Muhammad(PBUH) also , he was threatened to be killed, he was attacked many times, he was humiliated many times, he was attacked and eventually they exiled him

but all of this did not stop him or his message, he stood in their faces without fear of death or fear of what they would do to him , he trusted in all that God promised him and told him through Gabriel(the angel) and he persisted against great threat and opposition, and truly it was a miracle that he survived as he did despite all the opposition that was against him

he was never viewed as a threat, he wasnt a strong brawny macho rude loud obnoxious guy like the usual arab, he was the silent soft spoken opposite to them who loved his daughter and respected all people male or female , slave or free man

at first they ridiculed him but then it turned into a very serious threat with many attempts on his life because his message was reaching the ears of all the oppressed and captivated by these ridiculous standards that were normal in their society, but God saved him every time as his mission was promised by God to be a success
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#18
RE: Islam and its History and Impact of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH)
Brevity is the soul of wit, you know.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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#19
RE: Islam and its History and Impact of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH)
I see, you won't be addressing any comments, or having a discussion....instead, you'll be plastering muslim graffiti on the walls. That the plan, yaku?
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#20
RE: Islam and its History and Impact of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH)
I tend to avoid walls of text.


I have again.



You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.

Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.




 








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