Really, Germany?

[Excited Penguin]

The "national guilt " is mostly a matter of state protocol and foreign relations. Honestly, noone I know feels personally guilty about anything. Well, my 93yo Grandmother might have reason to because she was actually there, but she don't know what's going on anymore anyways. I'm rather proud of the culture of openness and sensitivity to these issues we have here, which is much better developed than in other countries who have committed atrocities on a smaller scale. Patriotism is considered suspect here at least in public discourse, and you know, I'm fine with that. The only problem I see is that we should not be too timid to communicate our values and standards to immigrants and refugees. I think most of them are eager to become part of something new, and they should know exactly what it is they are joining!

Aaand we get to the problem. You have a huge refugee issue right now, and it stems from trying to make up for what happened a century ago. At least that's how a lot of people see it, including me.

Were the people sexually assaulting your women to various degrees on New Year's Eve trying to understand your values? Just curious.

[Excited Penguin]

Yes, but it does not lessen guilt of perpetrators. 

Yes, it does in fact. If you understand why someone is doing what they're doing you become better equipped to handle it and prevent it from happening again, and that's all that matters. Guilt is irrelevant.

Obviously it isn't fault of people born long after. But if not Germans (and other nations too) then who is responsible for Shoah? History itself? Spirit of the times?

Not all Germans were guilty of killing or being accessory to it, yes. But indifference which was more widespread than hate also don't absolve of guilt. Here I'm in agreement with Ian Kershaw and his words: The road to Auschwitz was built by hate, but paved with indifference.

There are a lot of factors involved, including basic human nature, as I pointed out earlier, and charismatic leaders to take advantage of it. It's a very complex issue. But blaming everyone for what happened is simply idiotic and will get you nowhere even if you were right about looking at it like that, which you're not.

It's more about justice and accountability than law itself I would say. I kinda think that man in question should be persecuted, but if he really has dementia then there is no point in doing this I would say.

That is what law means, essentially. You would have to be more of an expert on law precisely to understand how and why such decisions are made. Presumably they're not entirely irrational, no matter the outcome. You can have your uninformed opinion on the matter, of course, but that's all it is. Don't try and add more credibility to it when there is none to be had. It's not as clear-cut as that.

[Excited Penguin]

A terrible thing happened. They happen all the time, in fact, maybe not on that scale all that often or for the same reasons, but they do happen and will continue to happen unless we figure out ways to stop them from happening. Mindlessly pointing fingers at everyone however is not the way to do it. Less emotion, more reasoning.

[Alex K]

The "national guilt " is mostly a matter of state protocol and foreign relations. Honestly, noone I know feels personally guilty about anything. Well, my 93yo Grandmother might have reason to because she was actually there, but she don't know what's going on anymore anyways. I'm rather proud of the culture of openness and sensitivity to these issues we have here, which is much better developed than in other countries who have committed atrocities on a smaller scale. Patriotism is considered suspect here at least in public discourse, and you know, I'm fine with that. The only problem I see is that we should not be too timid to communicate our values and standards to immigrants and refugees. I think most of them are eager to become part of something new, and they should know exactly what it is they are joining!

Aaand we get to the problem. You have a huge refugee issue right now, and it stems from trying to make up for what happened a century ago. At least that's how a lot of people see it, including me.

Were the people molesting and raping your women on New Year's Eve trying to understand your values? Just curious.

No, as far as I know they were an organized group trying to stir up trouble and steal stuff. What exactly is your point?

[Excited Penguin]

Aaand we get to the problem. You have a huge refugee issue right now, and it stems from trying to make up for what happened a century ago. At least that's how a lot of people see it, including me.

Were the people molesting and raping your women on New Year's Eve trying to understand your values? Just curious.

No, as far as I know they were an organized group trying to stir up trouble and steal stuff. What exactly is your point?

I cannot make my point clearer than that. If you're trying to make me sound like a bigot, I won't bite. I'm either wrong or right about this, and time will tell. But from your current attitude, I suspect your towns might very well burn to the ground and you'll still be asking me what my point is.

[Excited Penguin]

Let me make this a little clearer. You introduced in your society a lot of people who aren't ready for it. Let's hope the price you'll pay for that won't be too high.

[Ivan Denisovich]

Yes, it does in fact. If you understand why someone is doing what they're doing you become better equipped to handle it and prevent it from happening again, and that's all that matters. Guilt is irrelevant.

It does cause you say so? I in - small - part understand why they done it but I don't think that their guilt it's not lessened by it. It matters not if they were thinking that Jews are subhumans or disease as killing is still killing.

And why guilt is irrelevant?

Though I agree that understanding the motives might be helpful in preventing such from occurring again.

There are a lot of factors involved, including basic human nature, as I pointed out earlier, and charismatic leaders to take advantage of it.

So it was all Hitler fault? Diabolical dictator with unearthly powers of persuasion convinced entire nation that killing of Jews is just?

It's a very complex issue.

It is but for me it looks like you're trying to cheapen it with talk about charismatic leader and basic human nature. It leaves no room for earlier anti-Semitism, ideology, feeling of national humiliation or economical considerations.

But blaming everyone for what happened is simply idiotic and will get you nowhere even if you were right about looking at it like that, which you're not.

You're saying I'm not right so I'm not right. Interesting. Also I don't blame everyone - I only answered to your claim that Germans weren't entirely responsible.

That is what law means, essentially. You would have to be more of an expert on law precisely to understand how and why such decisions are made. Presumably they're not entirely irrational, no matter the outcome. You can have you're uninformed opinion on the matter, of course, but that's all it is. Don't try and add more credibility to it when there is none to be had. It's not as clear-cut as that.

So law is equal with justice? Curious concept indeed considering penalties for drug use for example.

Also I didn't say that decisions of court are irrational so I don't know what you are jumping at.

[Alex K]

EP,
I'm not trying to paint you as a bigot and I don't perceive you as one, I really didn't quite get the connection. I still refuse to take the cologne incident as the defining moment of how we should see the refugee crisis. This was not hordes of syrians molesting women in public because their culture says it's ok (it doesn't), it was an orchestrated criminal effort. That's an important distinction be ause it points towards a different problem.

Your point that Germany might now feel compelled to do certain things because of its past that it otherwise wouldn't do is not lost on me. We're also one of the richest place in the vicinity, that's another factor.

[Excited Penguin]

It does cause you say so? I in part at least understand why they done it but I don't think that their guilt it's not lessened by it. It matters not if they were thinking that Jews are subhumans or disease as killing is still killing.

And why guilt is irrelevant?

If you really had a notion about why it happened you wouldn't feel the irrational urge to blame someone for it. No one is to blame. Forget about blame and guilt altogether. Focus on preventing crime and containing it. You can cry in your pillow about the other stuff all you want.

So it was all Hitler fault? Diabolical dictator with unearthly powers of persuasion convinced entire nation that killing of Jews is just? 

No, I didn't say that. In fact I don't think it's anyone's "fault", not even Hitler's. Hitler did what he did. He couldn't have done otherwise and didn't. Same goes for everyone else.

It is but for me it looks like you're trying to cheapen it with talk about charismatic leader and basic human nature. It leaves no room for earlier anti-Semitism, ideology, feeling of national humiliation or economical considerations.

It's not just mere talk. These are demonstrable facts that shed light on the problem. I am very aware of earlier anti-Semitism and all of the other factors involved. In fact I pointed out myself that there's many factors to it. Do you have any point at all here or are you just talking gibberish?

You're saying I'm not right so I'm not right. Interesting. Also I don't blame everyone - I only answered to your claim that Germans weren't entirely responsible. 

The way you initially put it left room for doubt about that. For example here you said:

But if not Germans (and other nations too) then who is responsible for Shoah?

Instead of saying certain Germans. It's true you later said you're not blaming all Germans for it, so let me clarify my own statement as well, if it is a game of language that you want us to play here. Instead of blaming everyone I'm accusing you of blaming anyone at all in particular and having that extend to present times in any way, shape or form. Instead, we should be looking at the roots of the problem and try and prevent it from ever happening again. If I'm strawmanning you here, that's great, it's just a misunderstanding. If not, my point stands.

So law is equal with justice? Curious concept indeed considering penalties for drug use for example.

Also I didn't say that decisions of court are irrational so I don't know what you are jumping at. You're frustrated with something perhaps?

Law is in the business of pursuing justice(notice that I didn't say it's equal to justice). If you have other issues with our current societal laws, you should talk about them elsewhere, as this is not a thread about penalties for drug abuse to cite your own example.

I never said you did say the courts were irrational. I implied you were implying it though, and rightly so, given how and what quote of mine you were responding to.

Your way of arguing is really dishonest. If you go back and read my statements, then read yours, that's easy to see. I'll indulge you though for as long as we can keep up any semblance of a conversation.

[Excited Penguin]

EP,
I'm not trying to paint you as a bigot and I don't perceive you as one, I really didn't quite get the connection. I still refuse to  take the cologne incident as the defining moment of how we should see the refugee crisis. This was not hordes of syrians molesting women in public because their culture says it's ok (it doesn't), it was an orchestrated criminal effort. That's an important distinction be ause it points towards a different problem.

Your point that Germany might now feel compelled to do certain things because of its past that it otherwise wouldn't do is not lost on me. We're also one of the richest place in the vicinity, that's another factor.

Ok, I admit I might be wrong about this. I'll agree to whatever the evidence shows to be the case.