Atheism & the Death Penalty.

[Nay_Sayer]

Child rapists would be the exception for me, I have, admittedly, No tolerance for them.

I'm interested in how Christians and Catholics answered this, For them Asking forgiveness or confessing of the sins is an easy 1 step process into their fake afterlife.

FSM forgives but he does not forget.

[God of Mr. Hanky]

I think offering humane suicide to (proper) life sentence inmates is kinder than forcing them to choose between (potentially) a life which is continually miserable and killing themselves in an improvised fashion.

I would suggest the option not to be available for a certain amount of time after the sentence starts, because you're not likely to be in your right mind after receiving such crushing news. But after (carefully chosen length of time), if an independent agent agrees that the person really wants suicide, is in as sound mental state as they are ever likely to be, and isn't being coerced (the hardest bit) then they are allowed the release of death.

To keep me alive in prison would be tantamount to torturing me. I'd end up probably repeatedly trying to kill myself, and quite likely failing.

This reminds me of Kurt Russell's Escape from New York 1981 film.

Perhaps that should be done with Long Island

[Jehanne]

This reminds me of Kurt Russell's Escape from New York 1981 film.

Perhaps that should be done with Long Island

Completely inappropriate, considering that Donald Trump lives in Manhattan.

[Catholic_Lady]

Child rapists would be the exception for me, I have, admittedly, No tolerance for them.

I'm interested in how Christians and Catholics answered this, For them Asking forgiveness or confessing of the sins is an easy 1 step process into their fake afterlife.

FSM forgives but he does not forget.

The Catholic teaching on the death penalty is that it would *only* permitted if that was the only way a society had of stopping the murderers and keeping society safe. Now a days, we have the means to keep murderers and rapists locked up where they cannot hurt anyone, so the death penalty should not be used.

[Jehanne]

Child rapists would be the exception for me, I have, admittedly, No tolerance for them.

I'm interested in how Christians and Catholics answered this, For them Asking forgiveness or confessing of the sins is an easy 1 step process into their fake afterlife.

FSM forgives but he does not forget.

The Catholic teaching on the death penalty is that it would *only* permitted if that was the only way a society had of stopping the murderers and keeping society safe. Now a days, we have the means to keep murderers and rapists locked up where they cannot hurt anyone, so the death penalty should not be used.

Let everyone be subject to the higher authorities, for there exists no authority except from God, and those who exist have been appointed by God. Therefore he who resists the authority resists the ordinance of God and they that resist bring on themselves condemnation. For rulers are a terror not to the good work but to the evil. Dost thou wish, then, not to fear the authority? Do what is good and thou wilt have praise from it. For it is God's minister to thee for good. But if thou dost what is evil, fear, for not without reason does it carry the sword. For it is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who does evil. (Romans 13:1-4)

[Catholic_Lady]

The Catholic teaching on the death penalty is that it would *only* permitted if that was the only way a society had of stopping the murderers and keeping society safe. Now a days, we have the means to keep murderers and rapists locked up where they cannot hurt anyone, so the death penalty should not be used.

Let everyone be subject to the higher authorities, for there exists no authority except from God, and those who exist have been appointed by God. Therefore he who resists the authority resists the ordinance of God and they that resist bring on themselves condemnation. For rulers are a terror not to the good work but to the evil. Dost thou wish, then, not to fear the authority? Do what is good and thou wilt have praise from it. For it is God's minister to thee for good. But if thou dost what is evil, fear, for not without reason does it carry the sword. For it is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who does evil. (Romans 13:1-4)

For an ex Catholic, you know very little about the Catholic Church if you think our Doctrinal teachings come straight from a literal interpretation of any bible passage. 

"Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent.""

- The Catechism of the Catholic Church

[robvalue]

I realized that what I said about suicide is my general policy, so it's not really any more relevant to prison.

Someone could sign to say that they wish to be terminated after the trial, should the verdict go against them, while they're in sound mind. I would do so. But then again, if I'd actually committed a murder or something, I'd be off to kill myself anyway as I couldn't live with it.

[Jehanne]

Let everyone be subject to the higher authorities, for there exists no authority except from God, and those who exist have been appointed by God. Therefore he who resists the authority resists the ordinance of God and they that resist bring on themselves condemnation. For rulers are a terror not to the good work but to the evil. Dost thou wish, then, not to fear the authority? Do what is good and thou wilt have praise from it. For it is God's minister to thee for good. But if thou dost what is evil, fear, for not without reason does it carry the sword. For it is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who does evil. (Romans 13:1-4)

For an ex Catholic, you know very little about the Catholic Church if you think our Doctrinal teachings come straight from a literal interpretation of any bible passage. 

"Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent.""

- The Catechism of the Catholic Church

First, the "traditional" teaching of the Catholic Church:

Even in the case of the death penalty the State does not dispose of the individual’s right to life. Rather public authority limits itself to depriving the offender of the good of life in expiation for his guilt, after he, through his crime, deprived himself of his own right to life. (Pius XII, Address to the First International Congress of Histopathology of the Nervous System, 14 September 1952, XIV, 328)

Remember, Pope John Paul II "changed his tune" with respect to his Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition (it should be on the front cover, if not, look inside.)  Here's the First Edition's "teachings" (emphasis mine):

2267. If bloodless means are sufficient to defend human lives against an aggressor and to protect public order and the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Now, the "updated" teachings (emphasis mine again):

2267. Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity with the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm — without definitively taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself — the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically non-existent.”

Welcome to "the Dark Side".  

[Catholic_Lady]

For an ex Catholic, you know very little about the Catholic Church if you think our Doctrinal teachings come straight from a literal interpretation of any bible passage. 

"Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent.""

- The Catechism of the Catholic Church

First, the "traditional" teaching of the Catholic Church:

Even in the case of the death penalty the State does not dispose of the individual’s right to life. Rather public authority limits itself to depriving the offender of the good of life in expiation for his guilt, after he, through his crime, deprived himself of his own right to life. (Pius XII, Address to the First International Congress of Histopathology of the Nervous System, 14 September 1952, XIV, 328)

Remember, Pope John Paul II "changed his tune" with respect to his Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition (it should be on the front cover, if not, look inside.)  Here's the First Edition's "teachings" (emphasis mine):

2267. If bloodless means are sufficient to defend human lives against an aggressor and to protect public order and the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Now, the "updated" teachings (emphasis mine again):

2267. Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity with the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm — without definitively taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself — the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically non-existent.”

Welcome to "the Dark Side".  

Ok, so why were you refuting my initial comment about the Church's position on the death penalty by quoting a random passage from the bible to try to prove that the Church is ok with it?

EDIT to add: And as you pointed out yourself, the 1st edition of the CCC pretty much says the same exact thing with less words and going into less details. But still the same teaching. So I don't see what your objection is to my statements on this.

[Jehanne]

Ok, so why were you refuting my initial comment about the Church's position on the death penalty by quoting a random passage from the bible to try to prove that the Church is ok with it?

EDIT to add: And as you pointed out yourself, the 1st edition of the CCC pretty much says the same exact thing with less words and going into less details. But still the same teaching. So I don't see what your objection is to my statements on this.

I'm sorry that you cannot appreciate the difference between the words "should" and "will".  (My kids do, by the way.)  The Catholic Church's "evolving" position on the death penalty is a perfect example of the Zeitgeist at work, "theologically speaking".  But, yes, "Welcome!"  I am glad that the Church is on board with respect to this issue at least.  Question is, "Why are there some atheists on this thread who are holding to the traditional retributive teaching on capital punishment that is found in the Bible?"