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(February 9, 2016 at 2:10 pm)robvalue Wrote: I suppose I can see that if you are still unhappy, you no longer have the consolation that there's something better round the corner if you grin and bear it. But it seems eerily similar to the idea of being drunk, and not being fully present in life anyway.
Of course, if you grin and bear it through a bad situation, then there will be something better no matter what you believe, however long it may take, because the only constant in this universe is change. Even when facing imminent death, you get through it and then the suffering stops.
February 10, 2016 at 2:29 am (This post was last modified: February 10, 2016 at 2:38 am by robvalue.)
Hanky: A very good point! Indeed, remembering that things won't always be the way they are now was a vital part of my recent therapy. It's simple things like this that the depressive mind can keep out when it gets a hold. This is why I now have a "treasure box". At the suggestion of my therapist, it contains a letter written to myself, from when I am at my best. It reminds me of all the sensible advice, like the above. I give myself all the good advice I can, so that I don't have to struggle to think of it when I'm at my worst. I remind myself of all the people who care about me, and who I matter to.
It contains other things that I know are good at helping me get through a bad patch, which I also may simply forget about. It has lovely photos of happy moments from my life in an album.
I thoroughly recommend it to anyone!
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.
Honestly, I struggle. I cannot honestly say I am happier. I am more mindful, and more aware, and more open to new information. I feel like I am able to understand many things more fully, but this actually leads me to quite a bit more suffering. Back when I could pass everything off as Gods plan, I could grieve with an odd sense of joy underlining it (kind of sick, looking back). But now, I just grieve....like, for everything. There is this strange duality to the world I never knew before. I feel wonder and awe and joy at life, the universe, and everything. I sing and dance, kiss and hug my family, laugh and cry with joy. But underneath it I have this constant sense of grief that it is all temporary and, in the grandest scheme of things, kind of meaningless. (I know theists will attack this, and I know that many atheists do not experience these, but I do.) I think if I had been raised without religion, I would not have these issues, this is all a result of me having to learn how to discard the illusions of religion and the false crutches of prayer and magic, and accept reality.
I'm doing things in an attempt to overcome all of this. I've started Dialectical behavior therapy, which focuses on mindfulness and radical acceptance, something I actually feel is helping. I've delved into reading the Tao (not the spiritual mumbo jumbo, but more of the philosophy of acceptance, living in the now, and meditation to supplement the therapy).
I am still very anxious and have dark moods, but I am able to embrace them, accept things, and move on more quickly now. Still, every day is a struggle. Growing up in a deeply religious household, going to a private Catholic school for so long, I was never given any real tools to deal with the real world. Prayer, or giving things up to god, are clearly pretty effing useless now that I know that is all BS. So I feel a bit like I've been dumped in an ocean without ever having been taught to swim.
I have always been an extremely empathetic person, but now all the pain I feel when I see or imagine the suffering of others is harder to channel. I cannot participate in a lot of things because I find them emotionally overwhelming.
In the end, I am still glad to have shed the fairy tale, but embracing reality is really a chore for me, sometimes.
Sounds like you may be clinically depressed, but did you ever stop to think that it may be the catholic church, and not Christ and christianity, that was the cause of your problems? Why do you have to go to therapy to be able to accept an atheistic world? Maybe it's because the world really is meaningless without God.
That was pretty fucking sleazy, Lek...as if your specific brand of bullshit is any better.
What's meaningless is any pretense of care and concern, when you'd really just like to "win one for the team." Don't bother denying it; You've already admitted that you'd be a selfishly callous, criminally-minded bastard without your bedtime story.
So, obviously giving a shit doesn't come naturally to you.
Sleazy weasel.
It is very sad to me. I honestly thought Lek was a cut above the atrocious charicature religious types we generally get here.
If I was right, maybe this will cause him to do a little self reflection. That is the skill sadly missing from those who I don't even bother reading or replying to.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.
February 10, 2016 at 4:18 pm (This post was last modified: February 10, 2016 at 5:04 pm by Lek.)
(February 9, 2016 at 1:31 pm)robvalue Wrote: I'm disappointed, I thought you were better than that Lek.
That was like telling someone who poured their heart out at AA to "just have another drink", and waving a bottle in front of them.
What am I supposed to do. Should I tell someone a lie in hope that it will make him feel better? Lying to him would be more akin to telling him to have another drink.
February 10, 2016 at 4:33 pm (This post was last modified: February 10, 2016 at 4:34 pm by Lek.)
(February 9, 2016 at 2:10 pm)robvalue Wrote: I am still genuinely puzzled by this idea of "meaning" to life, and how religion is supposed to give it meaning.
It appears to reduce this life to some sort of test, which is of zero relative length and happiness compared to "the next life". Like this is something to be got through, before the good bit starts. Some crappy trailers before the main film.
I've never been under, so it's hard for me to understand. It would seem that realizing this is in fact all there is would add a sense of urgency and value like never before. If anyone can help me understand this, I'd be grateful. I've heard "no meaning without god", but what meaning is there with god? I'd find this life to be pretty meaningless actually, if I found out it was a constructed test just to see if I'd believe a load of nonsense or not.
I suppose I can see that if you are still unhappy, you no longer have the consolation that there's something better round the corner if you grin and bear it. But it seems eerily similar to the idea of being drunk, and not being fully present in life anyway.
Believing in God and an afterlife doesn't at all diminish the importance of this life. This life on earth is the beginning of an eternal existence. That in itself doesn't make this life any more or less important, but we were created for a specific purpose. We still strive as much as an atheist to make our time here meaningful from an earthly perspective, as well the lives of our neighbors. Why do think I'm involved in so much community service? Having God in this life makes it important and meaningful because we're being formed to be the kind of people we will be for eternity and are helping others to do the same. You live your lives in trying to achieve a purpose in a world that you believe was formed completey without a purpose.
(February 8, 2016 at 1:17 pm)Lek Wrote: Let me simplify what I was trying to say. Since I believe that so many of our tax contributions are wasted and wrongly spent, that, if I was an atheist, I would try to hide as much income as I could so as not to pay so much in taxes. As a christian I am directed to pay my taxes.
So atheists are tax cheats?
Charming.
I don't suppose you have anything other than your opinion to back this up?
February 10, 2016 at 4:51 pm (This post was last modified: February 10, 2016 at 4:52 pm by Lek.)
(February 9, 2016 at 2:17 pm)Aroura Wrote:
(February 9, 2016 at 1:08 pm)Lek Wrote: Sounds like you may be clinically depressed, but did you ever stop to think that it may be the catholic church, and not Christ and christianity, that was the cause of your problems? Why do you have to go to therapy to be able to accept an atheistic world? Maybe it's because the world really is meaningless without God.
No, I really loved the church quite a lot, actually!
Lots of Christians have to go to therapy to accept a world WITH a belief in God, so I am not different in that respect. Thanks for your armchair diagnosis, Freud, but I have a real diagnosis and it isn't clinical depression. I am overly empathetic, and always have been.
And yeah, it IS meaningless....we have to inject our own meaning. You can do that with your fairy tale if that is what keeps you from running out and committing crimes or whatever. I'm doing it with charity work, volunteering, and my family. If there was a god, it would not, now that I think about it from outside the box, make everything suddenly meaningful.
Letting go of fairy tales is really hard. Growing up is REALLY hard, particularly if you are not taught how to be one by the "adults".
It is just that most people are never able to actually let go of their fairy tales, and accept reality. Like you. I find that a depressing...most of humanity spend their lives like infants with a security blanket, that have a temper tantrum every time anyone tries to take it away.
OK. I hear you. Sorry if I was too abrupt. Your post hit a cord with me because I'm a highly scrupulous person and being a catholic almost led me to the edge. Instead of following Christ, I was stressing out over whether or not I was following all the church rules and laws perfectly and thought that I was surely headed to hell. That doesn't mean that I don't believe that some people can be catholic and be a happy christian. It means that I know that it has driven people away from Christ who would have otherwise remained with him. But I can't, like Rob and others say I should, tell you that I agree with you about your views of God just so you can feel better. You say that you are doing volunteer work, etc to make it meaningful, so why do still feel life is not meaningful. Actually, you're thinking inside the box, not outside. You're living in your 3 D world that you can see and touch and can't get out of the box to realize that there can be something other than what we can detect through nature.
