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Still struggling.
RE: Still struggling.
(February 12, 2016 at 10:00 pm)GeneralDog Wrote: Things were going great earlier today. Now I had a though "What if this is just a phase?". I had a small bit of anxiety and tried to tell myself "Just reason things out and you will be fine, no one else I know (Besides my brother but he did at a different time) converted to atheism and back. Just use logic." I just got some doubt and I'm having a hard time ignoring the doubt.

What doubt?

The way you keep applying that word to atheism looks almost as if you are addressing atheism like some set of ideas and doctrines, just like the religion you say you want to leave behind, but atheism is nothing of the sort to which that word is applicable. Atheism is simply the default which one arrives at when you see no valid reasons to believe in a god. No deity, no holy book, and no doctrines = nothing to doubt. Which is why "doubt" is the issue of the theist who tries to live by the doctrines which he has been taught to believe, when confronted by the hard light of reality (too bad for him that he doesn't realize this isn't a problem, and that dealing with said reality is the best road to making better decisions).

If you really want people to reaffirm your "faith" to allay your "doubt" in atheism, it doesn't work that way. But if you are really interested in unpacking the truth on theistic ideas, then go back and look real hard at those ideas and ask yourself why you ever first believed in them (same reason as any brainwashed toddler), why you continued to reaffirm those ideas among peers and adults even when they were really starting to look like nonsense, and what were the reasons why you stopped believing in them (presuming that happened). That is how people become atheist - not from the atheist community offering better ideas (although they may admire science and philosophy), but because their evaluations of the ideas which you doubt are the most honest.

Oh, not sure if anyone's mentioned it on this thread, but reading your bible without the tinted glasses is the surest way to clear up the infection of the doctrines which were pulled from it. Read it all, evaluate what it says as a model for morality in human society, and don't make excuses for what you see when it offends you! There is a very good reason why a book which is thousands of years old should not be regarded as the perfect answer to all future generations as society evolves, and this is because the moral philosophy expressed in the bible is no better than the mortal swine "prophets" who wrote it! It's a truly horrible excuse for a moral code to be applied in modern society because it was written before our nearly universally-shared modern ideas (such as non-tolerance of rape and slavery) changed our humanity for the better, and this means that there could not have been any decent god who would have "inspired" the writing of that shit!

If you are in the bible-reading sectarian culture (I know Catholics tend to leave that to their priests), then you have probably seen a few offensive stories such as Lot's daughter being abandoned by her father in a deal he cut with a band of gang-rapists, or "Slaves, obey your masters", and every such case is spun clean from the pulpit to the audience which is willing to believe it's clean and holy, but the next time you see that being so done ask for evidence. If instead of producing hard evidence such as historical corroboration which is not theistically motivated instead of argument, which they will invariably do because it's all they know how to do, then demand empirical data - then you can enjoy watching Pulpit Suit founder! Oh, what was it again that you had doubts of?
Mr. Hanky loves you!
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RE: Still struggling.
(February 12, 2016 at 10:00 pm)GeneralDog Wrote: Things were going great earlier today. Now I had a though "What if this is just a phase?". I had a small bit of anxiety and tried to tell myself "Just reason things out and you will be fine, no one else I know (Besides my brother but he did at a different time) converted to atheism and back. Just use logic." I just got some doubt and I'm having a hard time ignoring the doubt.


There is no such thing as "converting to atheism" or "doubting atheism".

Atheism is nothing more than not being convinced that gods exist. 

If you find that you are convinced that at least one god exists, you are not "doubting atheism", you are a theist.

Now, the question you have to ask yourself, are you convinced for good reasons or bad reasons?

You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Still struggling.
For posterity, doubt is the position of the skeptic.
I am John Cena's hip-hop album.
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RE: Still struggling.
(February 12, 2016 at 11:42 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:
(February 12, 2016 at 10:00 pm)GeneralDog Wrote: Things were going great earlier today. Now I had a though "What if this is just a phase?". I had a small bit of anxiety and tried to tell myself "Just reason things out and you will be fine, no one else I know (Besides my brother but he did at a different time) converted to atheism and back. Just use logic." I just got some doubt and I'm having a hard time ignoring the doubt.


There is no such thing as "converting to atheism" or "doubting atheism".

Atheism is nothing more than not being convinced that gods exist. 

If you find that you are convinced that at least one god exists, you are not "doubting atheism", you are a theist.

Now, the question you have to ask yourself, are you convinced for good reasons or bad reasons?

OCD makes you doubt anything. Someone else said i was reaffirming like someone of faith, its that i fear falling back into faith do whenever i get anxiety i re-assure to make it go away. Thats probably the source of my doubt
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RE: Still struggling.
Mr. Hanky's post is right on. Not only is atheism not a religion, it's not like a religion. There's no atheist doctrine, no tenets, no rites or rituals or traditions to honor and uphold. All it is is a term that's shorthand for 'a lack of belief in gods'. That's it. Looking for some sort of deep meaning or value hidden within the term is missing the point.

That's not to say that atheism naturally leads to nihilistic hedonism. You'll find that many (most?) atheists are secular humanists or lean that way. But atheism in and of itself doesn't provide a path for one's life. You have to decide who you are, who you want to be, and live that way as best you can. That may sound scary, but it's actually very freeing. My actions are my own, and the consequences for them my responsibility. Any reparations I must make go to the people I hurt. Not god, not a church. I can't hide behind piety, but must stand or fall on my own. IMO, atheism is the mental/metaphorical equivalent of becoming an adult and moving out of your parents' house. It's the next step, culturally speaking, towards maturity.
"I was thirsty for everything, but blood wasn't my style" - Live, "Voodoo Lady"
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RE: Still struggling.
Don't listen to him....

Being an atheist means you can go and rape and murder all you want! He he

I do!
No God, No fear.
Know God, Know fear.
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RE: Still struggling.
Me too!

I've committed murder and rape exactly as many times as I've wanted to. Which is zero.

By the way, there are two subsections of atheism (you won't hear this from many religious people who always put all atheists in one category):

There is default "weak" atheism, which means you're not convinced there is a god, but you're not convinced there isn't, either. It's being undecided, like someone on a jury who hasn't found the evidence compelling either way.

Then there is "strong" atheism, which is the additional positive belief that there are no gods. It's not a statement of knowledge, it's not claiming certainty.

I'm a strong atheist with regard to all the charicature gods, Yahweh, Allah, Jesus, Vishnu, whatever. They are all very clearly fictional humanoid constructs. I don't claim to know for certain they don't exist, just to allow for some sort of bizarre cosmic coincidence, but I feel the likelihood is so close to zero as to make little odds. And since they aren't properly defined, and are contradictory in nature, it wouldn't even be clear if it was that character even if you found it.

I'm a weak atheist with regard to some sort of non-specific creator. People may call this a "God" but I find the term loaded and useless. For example, could this be an artificial reality and we have become self aware? Yes, that's entirely plausible and consistent. Do I believe it's actually true? No. Do I believe it's not true? Again, no. I'm not convinced either way, I withhold judgement until such time as there's any actual evidence to consider.

I'm pointing out that being a (weak) atheist isn't about certainty, or even belief there are no gods. It's just about saying, "I don't yet believe there is a god". Most of the time, the justification is simply that there is no evidence; and any reasonable person would reconsider their position if new evidence emerged.

But even if there is a god, that doesn't mean it's anything to do with the childish temper tantrum throwing complete idiots in the ancient books. It's far, far more likely that it is entirely indifferent to us, if it's even noticed us at all.
Feel free to send me a private message.
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RE: Still struggling.
(February 12, 2016 at 11:59 pm)GeneralDog Wrote: OCD makes you doubt anything. Someone else said i was reaffirming like someone of faith, its that i fear falling back into faith do whenever i get anxiety i re-assure to make it go away. Thats probably the source of my doubt

Best of luck with your OCD and your current struggles. You sound like you've got a good head on your shoulders. You probably can't quiet the doubts if they are a part of your OCD, but you can equip yourself to deal with them effectively by reading books about atheism like The God Delusion. Just a suggestion.
[Image: extraordinarywoo-sig.jpg]
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RE: Still struggling.
Kudos for recommending TGD.
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RE: Still struggling.
(February 13, 2016 at 11:18 am)Evie Wrote: Kudos for recommending TGD.

Please understand it's not a holy book, it's just one man's observations which happen to coincide with those of many other atheists. It's a great book because it is written with biting wit, can be read in the course of a few hours, and it will open your eyes wide when you have begun to doubt your old religion.
Mr. Hanky loves you!
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