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RE: Natural Order and Science
February 20, 2016 at 3:18 am
(February 20, 2016 at 2:41 am)bennyboy Wrote: (February 20, 2016 at 2:30 am)Harris Wrote: Creation is not possible without intelligent creator because nothing in the universe has created its own being.
. . . said God on an internet forum, revealing that he knows everything that can be known.
Anyway, did God create Himself? Obvious special pleading for a fairytale is obvious special pleading for a fairytale.
Oh Benny! You are in love of fairy tales.
My short answer is:
God is UNCREATED.
Whether intentionally or not but IATA put this truth in this way:
IATIA Wrote:
Obviously, "I" (whatever that is) am "here" (where ever that is) which means THERE WAS NEVER NOTHING.
I know your mind like many others would not digest this concept but the good news is that there is enough material available in philosophy which can free your mind from any apparent haze that basically is the result of insufficient thinking and contemplation.
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RE: Natural Order and Science
February 20, 2016 at 3:22 am
(This post was last modified: February 20, 2016 at 3:22 am by robvalue.)
How do you know God is uncreated? What is your source?
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RE: Natural Order and Science
February 20, 2016 at 3:39 am
(February 20, 2016 at 3:18 am)Harris Wrote: God is UNCREATED.
First prove that something called god exists outside of your imagination.
As for god being uncreated - turtles all way down  .
The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.
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RE: Natural Order and Science
February 20, 2016 at 4:30 am
(This post was last modified: February 20, 2016 at 4:30 am by Whateverist.)
(February 20, 2016 at 3:22 am)robvalue Wrote: How do you know God is uncreated? What is your source?
Even the most ardent believer feels confident that nothing he ever says regarding God's disposition will ever be challenged directly in any debate by the One who knows. Apparently God cannot speak for himself so that's where good Christians come in. 
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RE: Natural Order and Science
February 20, 2016 at 4:35 am
(This post was last modified: February 20, 2016 at 4:39 am by Harris.)
(February 20, 2016 at 3:39 am)Ivan Denisovich Wrote: (February 20, 2016 at 3:18 am)Harris Wrote: God is UNCREATED.
First prove that something called god exists outside of your imagination.
As for god being uncreated - turtles all way down .
You are asking me a proof of God and this request represents your disbelief in the existence of God. You cannot perceive God through your physical senses and that for you is a sufficient justification for your disbelief. In other words, God is an irrational concept for you. For that reason, let us talk by abiding the rules of rationalism.
Can you give a proof that things that we use in our daily lives are popping out in reality from nothing merely as a consequence of our stream of thoughts which emerge out of our needs and desires?
Do you think there is anything in the known universe that has created its own being out from nothing and without any intervention of some intelligible cause?
In my opinion any healthy person who thinks on this pattern is doing nothing but deceiving himself by closing eyes on the obvious facts.
The thought that things are popping out from nowhere is not only irrational but an utter absurd.
Because infinite regression is an impossibility because it simply ends into nothingness therefore the explanation of the existence is the uncaused cause that is God.
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RE: Natural Order and Science
February 20, 2016 at 5:35 am
(This post was last modified: February 20, 2016 at 5:35 am by robvalue.)
Why is infinite regression impossible?
You haven't even demonstrated a single regress external to our reality, how can you speak about the rules under which such regression works?
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RE: Natural Order and Science
February 20, 2016 at 7:47 am
(February 20, 2016 at 4:35 am)Harris Wrote: (February 20, 2016 at 3:39 am)Ivan Denisovich Wrote: First prove that something called god exists outside of your imagination.
As for god being uncreated - turtles all way down .
You are asking me a proof of God and this request represents your disbelief in the existence of God. You cannot perceive God through your physical senses and that for you is a sufficient justification for your disbelief. In other words, God is an irrational concept for you. For that reason, let us talk by abiding the rules of rationalism.
Can you give a proof that things that we use in our daily lives are popping out in reality from nothing merely as a consequence of our stream of thoughts which emerge out of our needs and desires?
Do you think there is anything in the known universe that has created its own being out from nothing and without any intervention of some intelligible cause?
In my opinion any healthy person who thinks on this pattern is doing nothing but deceiving himself by closing eyes on the obvious facts.
The thought that things are popping out from nowhere is not only irrational but an utter absurd.
Because infinite regression is an impossibility because it simply ends into nothingness therefore the explanation of the existence is the uncaused cause that is God.
I'm interested in proof not your special pleading. Though from theists I expect nothing more.
The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.
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RE: Natural Order and Science
February 20, 2016 at 7:59 am
(February 18, 2016 at 4:37 pm)Harris Wrote: (February 16, 2016 at 7:46 am)paulpablo Wrote: The argument of where do the laws of the universe come from has always seemed stupid to me, unless I'm understanding it incorrectly.
Is it because they are called laws that you think it must be like a law involving the police and the government? So you're saying well we have these laws but who put them there?
The scientific laws of the universe are principles which usually describe or predict things, the way things behave independent of any outside supernatural force, they're governed by non sentient physical forces.
The laws exist only because things have certain properties and react certain ways predictably, not because god is like the universe policeman shaking a club menacingly at anything that dares to disobey the laws of gravitation or relativity.
All objects of experience are characterized by generic and specific properties. Ponder over this question:
Why the form of a material thing became the manner in which material particles combined, with their relationship giving rise to the specific properties of the material thing?
I don't know what objects of experience are, I don't know what it means when you say ""Why the form of a material thing became the manner in which material particles combined."
Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.
Impersonation is treason.
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RE: Natural Order and Science
February 20, 2016 at 9:54 am
(This post was last modified: February 20, 2016 at 10:06 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Materials engineers, chemists and physicists would phrase that same statement entirely in reverse. The manner in which material particles combine becomes the form of the material thing. Why does a snowflake take the signature form? Because of the bond angle of h20...not the other way round.
Chads remark is a subtle conceit to his magical worldview.
I can see why it would be such a puzzling question from that POV, though. Why would it do that? Why indeed. Perhaps he'll share some insight with us, on that count?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Natural Order and Science
February 20, 2016 at 10:26 am
(This post was last modified: February 20, 2016 at 10:26 am by bennyboy.)
(February 20, 2016 at 3:18 am)Harris Wrote: Oh Benny! You are in love of fairy tales.
My short answer is:
God is UNCREATED.
If you're going to special plead philosophical solutions to philosophical rules that only you really instist on just 'cuz, why don't you say that the universe itself is uncreated, instead of inventing magical fairytale humanoids to fill that role?
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