I just don't get it

[drfuzzy]

Thanks for sharing your story, Emjay.  Your story and mine are almost identical.  Except I'm jealous: you came to your senses young.  It took me 46 years!

You're welcome   I'm sorry to hear that but at least you're free now   Looking at your profile... location: bible belt hell...

---

 and your earlier post, I think I probably had it a lot easier you and that would explain it - I think if I'd lived in that sort of environment - your mere mention of Westboro sent shivers down my spine - I think I would have took 46 years as well or longer. I'm from the UK and as far as I know, there's no such thing as a bible belt here, and nothing even resembling it. My family are fundamentalists in the sense that they are completely unshakeable in their beliefs, and in their stance on homosexuality, but the actual form of the religion they follow is quite 'progressive' (as opposed to the orthadox churches like the Catholic Church or the Church of England)... happy clappy Baptists, Joyce Meyer type stuff... so most of my childhood was filled with the laying of hands, "carpet time" as Randy put it, and speaking in tongues. There wasn't/isn't a prohibition on science or anything like that, as you described, in fact my dad has a degree in physics and is very much interested in all types of science. In terms of level of belief I think my dad has more faith than all of the preachers I've ever seen put together... I've never met anyone else like him in that respect so in that regard I'd call him a fundamentalist, but he's not a fire and brimstone type Christian by any stretch of the imagination. He'll always forgive me, but he'll never accept the homosexual part of me. But he does love me, and as long as the issue of homosexuality stays firmly 'out of sight, out of mind', we get on like a house on fire because we're actually very similar in nature and have similar interests (plus we take the piss out of each other like nobody's business ). Anyway, so I was just saying really that our situations are a bit different and it looks like you've had to deal with a much more oppressive and perhaps even physically dangerous environment... being in Fred Phelps land...

---

so major kudos for breaking free from that, no matter how long it took  

Thanks, Emjay.  I appreciate it.  Got my DNA tested . . . 96% British Isles, the rest is French and German and Basque . . . and I have had moments when I'm a little miffed at my very brave ancestors for crossing the pond!  You Brits seem so much more sane in many respects.  I'm glad that you still have your parents in your life, even tho' things must get a little strained at times.  Chin up!  I look forward to reading your posts here!

[awoken]

It absolutely drives me nuts when religious people say "it says in the scripture".

No matter how logical I argue the point, I always get "but it says so in the scripture"

No matter how hard I try to explain "yes, but I don't believe in the scripture".

"Well then you are going to hell"

"No I am not"

"yes you are, it says so in the scripture".

idiots.

[Joods]

Welcome to the forums Awoken. Why don't you introduce yourself in the introductions subforum?

I have come to the conclusion to just walk away from people like that. They drain me of my energy when I could be talking to normal people.

[emjay]

You're welcome   I'm sorry to hear that but at least you're free now   Looking at your profile... location: bible belt hell...

---

 and your earlier post, I think I probably had it a lot easier you and that would explain it - I think if I'd lived in that sort of environment - your mere mention of Westboro sent shivers down my spine - I think I would have took 46 years as well or longer. I'm from the UK and as far as I know, there's no such thing as a bible belt here, and nothing even resembling it. My family are fundamentalists in the sense that they are completely unshakeable in their beliefs, and in their stance on homosexuality, but the actual form of the religion they follow is quite 'progressive' (as opposed to the orthadox churches like the Catholic Church or the Church of England)... happy clappy Baptists, Joyce Meyer type stuff... so most of my childhood was filled with the laying of hands, "carpet time" as Randy put it, and speaking in tongues. There wasn't/isn't a prohibition on science or anything like that, as you described, in fact my dad has a degree in physics and is very much interested in all types of science. In terms of level of belief I think my dad has more faith than all of the preachers I've ever seen put together... I've never met anyone else like him in that respect so in that regard I'd call him a fundamentalist, but he's not a fire and brimstone type Christian by any stretch of the imagination. He'll always forgive me, but he'll never accept the homosexual part of me. But he does love me, and as long as the issue of homosexuality stays firmly 'out of sight, out of mind', we get on like a house on fire because we're actually very similar in nature and have similar interests (plus we take the piss out of each other like nobody's business ). Anyway, so I was just saying really that our situations are a bit different and it looks like you've had to deal with a much more oppressive and perhaps even physically dangerous environment... being in Fred Phelps land...

---

so major kudos for breaking free from that, no matter how long it took  

Thanks, Emjay.  I appreciate it.  Got my DNA tested . . . 96% British Isles, the rest is French and German and Basque . . . and I have had moments when I'm a little miffed at my very brave ancestors for crossing the pond!  You Brits seem so much more sane in many respects.  I'm glad that you still have your parents in your life, even tho' things must get a little strained at times.  Chin up!  I look forward to reading your posts here!

Hiya drfuzzy... I'm sorry I haven't replied sooner   I've been busy packing all day long because I'm moving out in two days, at least for a few months... finally going to spread my wings for the first time in my life 

That's interesting, I've never thought of having my DNA tested like that. I'm half English, half Irish as far as I know, but a test like that might reveal more. Yeah it's a tough one... American history has always been enchanting to me but all that pretty much went out the window when I read the God Delusion and learned what it was really like in some places, both in its oppression of atheists and - from a different book... but one which painted a remarkably similar picture - homosexuals.

I don't know about saner It would be interesting to understand why America developed like that in some places, and we didn't, but as it stands I haven't got a clue

As for my parents, it's okay. We get on well enough most of the time. I used to be quite a handful, not exactly a gay activist... or not much of one ...but out and proud and writing to and talking with MPs about gay issues and stuff like that. Into gay rights... though I've never been on a Pride march. But I've kind of settled down since then, for the sake of a quiet life, so we don't get into it as much as we used to.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to reading your posts too, and again I'm sorry I didn't reply sooner. I wanted to but there was just so much to do and by the end of the day I was (and am) completely shattered.

[drfuzzy]

Thanks, Emjay.  I appreciate it.  Got my DNA tested . . . 96% British Isles, the rest is French and German and Basque . . . and I have had moments when I'm a little miffed at my very brave ancestors for crossing the pond!  You Brits seem so much more sane in many respects.  I'm glad that you still have your parents in your life, even tho' things must get a little strained at times.  Chin up!  I look forward to reading your posts here!

Hiya drfuzzy... I'm sorry I haven't replied sooner   I've been busy packing all day long because I'm moving out in two days, at least for a few months... finally going to spread my wings for the first time in my life 

That's interesting, I've never thought of having my DNA tested like that. I'm half English, half Irish as far as I know, but a test like that might reveal more. Yeah it's a tough one... American history has always been enchanting to me but all that pretty much went out the window when I read the God Delusion and learned what it was really like in some places, both in its oppression of atheists and - from a different book... but one which painted a remarkably similar picture - homosexuals.

I don't know about saner It would be interesting to understand why America developed like that in some places, and we didn't, but as it stands I haven't got a clue  

As for my parents, it's okay. We get on well enough most of the time. I used to be quite a handful, not exactly a gay activist... or not much of one ...but out and proud and writing to and talking with MPs about gay issues and stuff like that. Into gay rights... though I've never been on a Pride march. But I've kind of settled down since then, for the sake of a quiet life, so we don't get into it as much as we used to.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to reading your posts too, and again I'm sorry I didn't reply sooner. I wanted to but there was just so much to do and by the end of the day I was (and am) completely shattered.

Good luck on your new ventures! Go Emjay go!
"It would be interesting to understand why America developed like that in some places" -- quite simple. We're a "young" nation, where a large portion of the immigrants arrived fleeing from religious prosecution. They all wanted a place for their religion to thrive. And the immigrants were primarily Protestant Christian.   . . . That pretty much explains everything.
Of course, I'm quite proud of my immigrant surname ancestor.  HE came here for freedom FROM religion.  It's in my genes!  

[Lek]

This might have been discussed before, but I'm really unable to understand it.

Today I've been discussing atheism with my friends (Muslims) and believe me, they're quite intelligent. At any rate, after I gave them plenty of strong arguments and cornered them, all they could say was " I believe deep down that there is a god".

Now this got me thinking (which is strange now that I think about it, since I've listened to this argument countless of times before and this has been discussed very often on these forums)

What kind of process that led me to become an atheist, that for some reason did not occur to them? I'm not a special snowflake for pit sakes.

I think intelligence is not the issue here, I know I can't convince you guys, but these friends of mine are really scientifically versed. Richard Dawkins, and many others, often said that these people are stuck in some kind of "child stage". 

I think it has to do with their "character", but I am very hesitant to say that, since I wouldn't consider myself to be a courageous person. In fact, I've had atheist friends who were particularly shy and introvert.

So what gives?

If your friends are "quite intelligent" and are "really scientifically versed", maybe they can detect something that you can't.  If God exists would he not be able to make himself known to those who who seek him or to whom he wants to make himself known?  Dawkins' assumption that these intelligent and scientifically versed people are stuck in a "child stage", doesn't go along with the assumption that scientific knowledge dispels any acceptance of the existence of God.  Why do you know better than your friends?

[Fake Messiah]

Perpetual question of why some people believe in wizards and delusions, it's like asking why are some people insisting on being racist? Very similar thing of deluding yourself and approaching world with this emotions that are planted in you by others and for some reason totally ignoring rationality and evidence.
Maybe it's just that people didn't learn how to think.
And also let's say you're Catholic and you decide you can't believe in that nonsense anymore, next step is facing with the fact that your parents, teachers and sometimes whole society blatantly lied to you, wasted your time and in many cases your life - which is not something that many people can do.

[Lek]

Perpetual question of why some people believe in wizards and delusions, it's like asking why are some people insisting on being racist? Very similar thing of deluding yourself and approaching world with this emotions that are planted in you by others and for some reason totally ignoring rationality and evidence.
Maybe it's just that people didn't learn how to think.
And also let's say you're Catholic and you decide you can't believe in that nonsense anymore, next step is facing with the fact that your parents, teachers and sometimes whole society blatantly lied to you, wasted your time and in many cases your life - which is not something that many people can do.

How about the people who have come to believe in God who were not raised that way?  CS Lewis was a very educated person who came to the faith from being an atheist.  If billions of intelligent, educated people have said that they experienced God, I would think that there might be something there.  You just assume that a God who doesn't have to follow the rules of the natural world doesn't exist because you can't prove his existence through natural means.  You're trapped by the boundaries of that little box you live in.  Science has no idea of what exists beyond the boundaries of our universe.  If he is God, he can reveal himself to me and the billions of others that he has revealed himself to.  It doesn't prove it to you, but it does prove it to those to whom he speaks.  Please don't judge those you don't know, and are more intelligent than you, and say that they don't know how to think.

[Fake Messiah]

 CS Lewis was a very educated person who came to the faith from being an atheist.  

CS Lewis was born Catholic but left it when he was 15 only to return later to some other branch, kind of similar to Kirk Cameron. CS Lewis was educated in literature and classic philosophy which unfortunately doesn't count that much. For instance I remember my high school literature professor who did know books but was an idiot. He believed that aliens built pyramids all over the world, apostles, Nazca lines as runways for alien airplanes and other nonsense.
Or I remember Stephen King once saying "But then again the idea of me writing hard science fiction, of doing an Arthur C. Clarke or a Larry Niven, is ludicrous. I got C’s and D’s in chemistry and physics."
Literature is usually one of the "easy" way out for people that are bad in science.
But then again it's sad that people thinkthey are hopeless in chemistry and physics because they didn't catch it in school and think they just can't learn it now. I mean there are so much beautiful books out there like I once mentioned Isaac Asimov. Read books in science like Asimov's tomes in physics and you'll see world unraveling in front of you, because I see you're mentioning again "God of the gaps".

If billions of intelligent, educated people have said that they experienced God, I would think that there might be something there.

And what god is that? Your religion, like all other religions, don't just have problem with science but all other religions too. Christians think that the only route to salvation is accepting Jesus as one’s savior. If you’re a Muslim, that doctrine will send you straight to hell. The Quran also claims that Jesus was slain but not crucified, with an impostor dying on the cross. Jews, of course, don’t see Jesus as the Messiah at all.
Hinduism has many gods. Jehovah’s Witnesses think that precisely 144,000 of them will make it to heaven, while the others who are saved will inhabit a paradise on Earth. In contrast, Laestadianism, a conservative branch of Lutheranism, considers itself the only true faith: only its roughly sixty thousand adherents are eligible for salvation, with the billions of others on Earth doomed to eternal torment.

Black Muslims believe that whites are a race of devils, created less than seven thousand years ago from selective breeding by a mad black scientist named Yakub. And, of course, there is Xenu and his hydrogen bombs. Add to these all the conflicting doctrines and equally conflicting moral codes that differ in how one should treat women, gays, sex before or outside of marriage, criminals, animals, and so on. They can’t all be right.

 You just assume that a God who doesn't have to follow the rules of the natural world doesn't exist because you can't prove his existence through natural means.  You're trapped by the boundaries of that little box you live in.  Science has no idea of what exists beyond the boundaries of our universe.  

What you think one day people in spaceship will exit our universe and meet there woman dressed in ancient middle eastern clothing holding a baby and realize it's virgin Mary and baby Jesus? I mean talk about "boundaries of that little box you live in".  

If he is God, he can reveal himself to me and the billions of others that he has revealed himself to.  It doesn't prove it to you, but it does prove it to those to whom he speaks.  Please don't judge those you don't know, and are more intelligent than you, and say that they don't know how to think.

Again it's not intelligent people, because God revealing himself: Sai Baba materializes cheap Japanese watches; someone sees Jesus in mold on an old sandwich; Church spreads lies about Marian visions with no evidence; Pope kisses some baby's head and it's tumor supposedly goes away despite Church being responsible for billions of deaths by lying about condoms being unsafe, preventing women to get vaccinated, using exorcism instead of medicine etc.; or recently man died in the car crash, by burning alive but his Bible stood intact.

[Old Baby]

Perpetual question of why some people believe in wizards and delusions, it's like asking why are some people insisting on being racist? Very similar thing of deluding yourself and approaching world with this emotions that are planted in you by others and for some reason totally ignoring rationality and evidence.
Maybe it's just that people didn't learn how to think.
And also let's say you're Catholic and you decide you can't believe in that nonsense anymore, next step is facing with the fact that your parents, teachers and sometimes whole society blatantly lied to you, wasted your time and in many cases your life - which is not something that many people can do.

How about the people who have come to believe in God who were not raised that way?  CS Lewis was a very educated person who came to the faith from being an atheist.  If billions of intelligent, educated people have said that they experienced God, I would think that there might be something there.  You just assume that a God who doesn't have to follow the rules of the natural world doesn't exist because you can't prove his existence through natural means.  You're trapped by the boundaries of that little box you live in.  Science has no idea of what exists beyond the boundaries of our universe.  If he is God, he can reveal himself to me and the billions of others that he has revealed himself to.  It doesn't prove it to you, but it does prove it to those to whom he speaks.  Please don't judge those you don't know, and are more intelligent than you, and say that they don't know how to think.

There are many people who at one time sincerely believed they "experienced God" who still believe in the experience, but understand that it was brought on by their emotions and their brain filling in the gaps with what they wanted to see. 

I also had an experience that is still real to me.  Once, I felt overcome by emotion at the altar in a Pentecostal church.  I didn't understand it, but I was weeping uncontrollably.  This happened after about 6-8 solid hours of praying to be filled with the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues.  No tongues happened, but afterward I was told by others that I had received the spirit and spoke in tongues.  I didn't understand what happened, but I knew that there was no spirit filling and certainly no tongues.  Now I realize that I was just emotionally fatigued and broken down.  I could have easily listened to them and accepted that this was God, but I couldn't settle for self-deception.