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Deism vs Religion (Non-guidance vs guidance).
#11
RE: Deism vs Religion (Non-guidance vs guidance).
(February 28, 2016 at 5:17 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: There is many reasons to me that Deism doesn't make sense as opposed to a religion. I think when religion can be summarized to be what a person submits to and follows for guidance. It's quite simple to me.

In Deism, you can do the following:

Follow yourself totally
Follow yourself partially, and partially follow others, in which in reality you are following yourself (you chose what to follow from others).
Follow a person totally


Now in Deism, you don't believe you are totally guided. And you don't believe others are totally guided by God because you have no proof of them being guided by God. 

It can be said while somethings you or others know will be correct and enlightening, this way is destined to mix falsehood with truth, for certain. You don't know the initial steps you must follow to reach the next steps, and so on, until you are following the light of God as ought it to be followed.

While in theory, we can supposedly connect to God and the light, in Deism, in practicality, it will be purely individual while the masses will be left without guidance.

On the other hand, the Quran says "God guides to the truth, is who guides to the truth more worthy to be followed, then who doesn't guide to it unless they are guided" and other verses it states "And of who who we created are a people who guide to the truth".

Naturally, those who guide by the truth will be guiding the light of God. God is to be followed through them.

While guidance of God doesn't mean people will follow it, not giving guidance, certainly, makes it increasingly probable that not many will follow it.


You just summarized why I strongly prefer deist behavior to theist behavior.  Deists don't think that they know what god wants and therefore think for themselves.  Theists tend to think a book written a hundreds of years ago is the word of god or worse yet that god is speaking to them directly: wars, burnings, discrimination, guilt over harmless things, burdensome rituals, shunninge, and other ugliness ensue.  There's nothing like thinking your own personal moral choices are ratified by god to cause evil in the world.
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god.  If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
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#12
RE: Deism vs Religion (Non-guidance vs guidance).
It's -particularly- irritating to watch them complain about all the -others- doing exactly the same thing they are..at a fundamental level.....as though it were wrong somehow..........
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#13
RE: Deism vs Religion (Non-guidance vs guidance).
(February 28, 2016 at 7:02 pm)Jenny A Wrote: You just summarized why I strongly prefer deist behavior to theist behavior.  Deists don't think that they know what god wants and therefore think for themselves.  Theists tend to think a book written a hundreds of years ago is the word of god or worse yet that god is speaking to them directly: wars, burnings, discrimination, guilt over harmless things, burdensome rituals, shunninge, and other ugliness ensue.  There's nothing like thinking your own personal moral choices are ratified by god to cause evil in the world.

Thanks Jenny. Good job summarizing why dogmatic religion is a terrible idea. Whether it's President Scroob (Spaceballs), The Great Pumpkin (Charlie Brown), Yahweh, Allah or the Invisible Pink Unicorn (blessed be her holy hooves) it's the same problem. It's MUCH better to think for yourself. One would be hard-pressed to do any worse.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

Albert Einstein
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#14
RE: Deism vs Religion (Non-guidance vs guidance).
(February 28, 2016 at 7:02 pm)Jenny A Wrote:
(February 28, 2016 at 5:17 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:



[/hide]
You just summarized why I strongly prefer deist behavior to theist behavior.  Deists don't think that they know what god wants and therefore think for themselves.  Theists tend to think a book written a hundreds of years ago is the word of god or worse yet that god is speaking to them directly: wars, burnings, discrimination, guilt over harmless things, burdensome rituals, shunninge, and other ugliness ensue.  There's nothing like thinking your own personal moral choices are ratified by god to cause evil in the world.


If I was an Atheist, I would prefer people believe Deism out of belief no religion is true.  However as far as reflecting goes, I find the way the Quran is designed, it's designed so we reflect a lot, and a lot, to begin to scratch the surface and appreciate it.

That said, logically, God can design literature in a way that makes us reflect more so then absence of his literature. I know in English class we thought a lot about different topics. Often it was the more unspoken parts of the literature, that had implicit messages, that were the deeper and more profound impact to people.

God can design the ultimate literature, that would inspire the best type of pondering and reflecting. 

So revealing a book doesn't mean you don't think. Yes you don't think independently, but, why is that it's good to read from all sorts of people but God is not suppose to reveal any literature to humanity? 

Why is that's good to learn from everyone but God?

Something is not adding up. Again, I understand this preference if one is Atheist. 

I understand why Atheists prefer for someone to be a Deist as opposed to a Theist.

But it's not because Deism is more logical then Theism, it's simply from the perspective of the Atheist, it's better to think for ourselves, then follow someone who made up a religion blindly.

However if religion was to be from God and it was not to be followed blindly but rather upon insight and seeing it to be true upon evidences, and clear proofs for the religion, then these problems don't exist.

We are arguing in theory which is better. 

In practicality, everyone can argue they are better off then another people, that's besides the point.
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#15
RE: Deism vs Religion (Non-guidance vs guidance).
Edit:

Never mind.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.

Index of useful threads and discussions
Index of my best videos
Quickstart guide to the forum
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#16
RE: Deism vs Religion (Non-guidance vs guidance).
Dead Horse
No God, No fear.
Know God, Know fear.
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#17
RE: Deism vs Religion (Non-guidance vs guidance).
@Mystic
"If my religion were true these problems wouldn't exist"
-Negative, the problems with your religion, and religion in general, exist -regardless- of the truth of any given religion.  As regards god being able to write the perfect book..i'd have to agree, and the quran is no such book, so...QED?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#18
RE: Deism vs Religion (Non-guidance vs guidance).
You said before that if Islam was true, we'd have no choice but to obey Allah.

I'm not obeying. So it can't be true.

Deism makes two assumptions:

1) This reality was created

2) The agent was intelligent

That's it. It's consistent with reality and scientific knowledge.

Any other brand of theism just makes further assumptions, adding arbitrary and untestable attributes to the agent. It also sometimes makes claims about reality, which often render it inconsistent; or the agent is given contradictory attributes making it internally inconsistent.

It's all a set of unecessary assumptions, which we have no need of to function perfectly well. I am sad that you feel you need so much guidance, rather than just thinking for yourself.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.

Index of useful threads and discussions
Index of my best videos
Quickstart guide to the forum
Reply
#19
RE: Deism vs Religion (Non-guidance vs guidance).
I can understand where he's coming from though.

He lost his mind to save his head!
Good trade if you ask me.
No God, No fear.
Know God, Know fear.
Reply
#20
RE: Deism vs Religion (Non-guidance vs guidance).
(February 29, 2016 at 12:36 am)MysticKnight Wrote:
(February 28, 2016 at 7:02 pm)Jenny A Wrote: You just summarized why I strongly prefer deist behavior to theist behavior.  Deists don't think that they know what god wants and therefore think for themselves.  Theists tend to think a book written a hundreds of years ago is the word of god or worse yet that god is speaking to them directly: wars, burnings, discrimination, guilt over harmless things, burdensome rituals, shunninge, and other ugliness ensue.  There's nothing like thinking your own personal moral choices are ratified by god to cause evil in the world.


If I was an Atheist, I would prefer people believe Deism out of belief no religion is true.  

No need to capitalize atheist or deist. Neither is an organized religion or an organization of any kind. It's like capitalizing Left Handed as if that made left handed people a coherent group. It's that self thinking, lack of group think, or I know what god wants thinking, that I like about deists.

Quote:However as far as reflecting goes, I find the way the Quran is designed, it's designed so we reflect a lot, and a lot, to begin to scratch the surface and appreciate it.

I see you and others attempting to demonstrate that from time to time. Mostly though I see simple minded Islamist Fundies crying infidel! Study yes. Deep reflection, possibly. But the loudest voices don't seem very reflective to me.

Quote:That said, logically, God can design literature in a way that makes us reflect more so then absence of his literature. I know in English class we thought a lot about different topics. Often it was the more unspoken parts of the literature, that had implicit messages, that were the deeper and more profound impact to people.

God can design the ultimate literature, that would inspire the best type of pondering and reflecting. 

So revealing a book doesn't mean you don't think. Yes you don't think independently, but, why is that it's good to read from all sorts of people but God is not suppose to reveal any literature to humanity? 

I don't think that there is a god let alone a god inspiring literature.

Quote:Why is that's good to learn from everyone but God?

Something is not adding up. Again, I understand this preference if one is Atheist. 

I understand why Atheists prefer for someone to be a Deist as opposed to a Theist.

But it's not because Deism is more logical then Theism, it's simply from the perspective of the Atheist, it's better to think for ourselves, then follow someone who made up a religion blindly.[/quote]

Ah huh.

Quote:However if religion was to be from God and it was not to be followed blindly but rather upon insight and seeing it to be true upon evidences, and clear proofs for the religion, then these problems don't exist.

We are arguing in theory which is better. 

In practicality, everyone can argue they are better off then another people, that's besides the point.

The point is that there is no god inspired literature. That's it. And the literature that is supposed to be god inspired gives weight to some very ugly ideas. I'm not interested in arguing what if it were god inspired until there is some evidence it was.
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god.  If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
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