Deism vs Religion (Non-guidance vs guidance).

[Jenny A]

There is many reasons to me that Deism doesn't make sense as opposed to a religion. I think when religion can be summarized to be what a person submits to and follows for guidance. It's quite simple to me.

In Deism, you can do the following:

Follow yourself totally
Follow yourself partially, and partially follow others, in which in reality you are following yourself (you chose what to follow from others).
Follow a person totally


Now in Deism, you don't believe you are totally guided. And you don't believe others are totally guided by God because you have no proof of them being guided by God. 

It can be said while somethings you or others know will be correct and enlightening, this way is destined to mix falsehood with truth, for certain. You don't know the initial steps you must follow to reach the next steps, and so on, until you are following the light of God as ought it to be followed.

While in theory, we can supposedly connect to God and the light, in Deism, in practicality, it will be purely individual while the masses will be left without guidance.

On the other hand, the Quran says "God guides to the truth, is who guides to the truth more worthy to be followed, then who doesn't guide to it unless they are guided" and other verses it states "And of who who we created are a people who guide to the truth".

Naturally, those who guide by the truth will be guiding the light of God. God is to be followed through them.

While guidance of God doesn't mean people will follow it, not giving guidance, certainly, makes it increasingly probable that not many will follow it.

---

Another thing is that as blame to whatever degree is what it is, only if has the characteristic of having been avoidable, it shows rationally it's possible to avoid any blameworthiness. 

The path of praise then if God would create infinite souls, would be inevitable, followed, without fault.

It's inevitable exalted souls exist that are more worthy to be followed then others.

It seems obvious to me, that God wants us to follow those more worthy of leadership and guidance, as opposed to those who for all we know,  are leading us and misguiding us by their whims.

Their seems to be a path that is praised in ourselves to follow, but we don't know exactly this path or if we do, we tent to forget and neglect parts of it.  Those who walked the path and reached the destination and God trusts would not deviate from the path, we would not know who they are, unless, God somehow proved their position which would make they worthy to be followed.

Aside from this, it seems that advice from God and admonishment from him would have a different effect then all others. And that God can speak to humanity in ways that addresses all of them and brings them collectively together in ways we humans cannot.

God can impress all their intellects, appeal to all of them, in ways, we don't understand how and why, and by what. He can also manifest divine glories and beauties in chapters and words, that would, manifest his personality, to all humans, and unite them on the light of his words and verify the truth by his words, in ways we cannot.

He can guide them all and express eloquence beyond that of humans only to be appreciated to the best and peak of our intellects yet still falling short, recognizing over time, that such a book has no limit to the degree it rises the intellect when appreciating it's subtle wonders.

Such a book could be the catalyst, even if neglected and not giving due right in the beginning, to uniting humanity on rope from him and manifesting leaders they ought to follow and unite upon.

It can manifest eloquently and inspire in ways, we cannot, inspire others.  

That said, such a book, to me being capable in God's power, surely would exist. There also being no way to bestow power and authority in reality that is based on truth other then through this, this would be another proof, since an authority and power to be followed by humans is better then anarchy, then, this would be the best way to unite humanity upon God's authority through giving authority to who he pleases through the divine books.

That he would unite humanity on a cause related to him, on affair related to him, through such chosen people, even though their rights and God's right linked to them, can be neglected for a long time.

That this would be the way to know who sincerely wants to help his cause and not help his cause, by having loyalty of an authority figure linked to him.

Aside from this, it seems, we have divine treasures in our souls, that we kind of neglect. A spiritual program from God in a way to exercise and hone this skills and powers, is important.

That our seeing power of our souls etc, will be developed through means of this program. 

All this I see nothing wisdom manifesting greatness, and I see it's opposite, something not befitting a majestic being.

That ultimately, it would, not leave us to ourselves, as we neglect his right, and neglect God and the light, it would remind us, call us back to the path, and try to unite us on the best of his creation and give us the most wonderful majestic honorable speech that can be said.

I was a Deist for about five years, and I've experienced in myself a void missing when we don't have a connection to God through his own words, are left to figure out everything for ourselves without guidance from his best friends, and have no rope or handhold of God to cling to.

We have all sorts of spiritual illnesses in humanity and we are in need of healing from God and his chosen ones.

---

You just summarized why I strongly prefer deist behavior to theist behavior.  Deists don't think that they know what god wants and therefore think for themselves.  Theists tend to think a book written a hundreds of years ago is the word of god or worse yet that god is speaking to them directly: wars, burnings, discrimination, guilt over harmless things, burdensome rituals, shunninge, and other ugliness ensue.  There's nothing like thinking your own personal moral choices are ratified by god to cause evil in the world.

[The Grand Nudger]

It's -particularly- irritating to watch them complain about all the -others- doing exactly the same thing they are..at a fundamental level.....as though it were wrong somehow..........

[AFTT47]

You just summarized why I strongly prefer deist behavior to theist behavior.  Deists don't think that they know what god wants and therefore think for themselves.  Theists tend to think a book written a hundreds of years ago is the word of god or worse yet that god is speaking to them directly: wars, burnings, discrimination, guilt over harmless things, burdensome rituals, shunninge, and other ugliness ensue.  There's nothing like thinking your own personal moral choices are ratified by god to cause evil in the world.

Thanks Jenny. Good job summarizing why dogmatic religion is a terrible idea. Whether it's President Scroob (Spaceballs), The Great Pumpkin (Charlie Brown), Yahweh, Allah or the Invisible Pink Unicorn (blessed be her holy hooves) it's the same problem. It's MUCH better to think for yourself. One would be hard-pressed to do any worse.

[Mystic]

---

There is many reasons to me that Deism doesn't make sense as opposed to a religion. I think when religion can be summarized to be what a person submits to and follows for guidance. It's quite simple to me.

In Deism, you can do the following:

Follow yourself totally
Follow yourself partially, and partially follow others, in which in reality you are following yourself (you chose what to follow from others).
Follow a person totally


Now in Deism, you don't believe you are totally guided. And you don't believe others are totally guided by God because you have no proof of them being guided by God. 

It can be said while somethings you or others know will be correct and enlightening, this way is destined to mix falsehood with truth, for certain. You don't know the initial steps you must follow to reach the next steps, and so on, until you are following the light of God as ought it to be followed.

While in theory, we can supposedly connect to God and the light, in Deism, in practicality, it will be purely individual while the masses will be left without guidance.

On the other hand, the Quran says "God guides to the truth, is who guides to the truth more worthy to be followed, then who doesn't guide to it unless they are guided" and other verses it states "And of who who we created are a people who guide to the truth".

Naturally, those who guide by the truth will be guiding the light of God. God is to be followed through them.

While guidance of God doesn't mean people will follow it, not giving guidance, certainly, makes it increasingly probable that not many will follow it.

[hide]Another thing is that as blame to whatever degree is what it is, only if has the characteristic of having been avoidable, it shows rationally it's possible to avoid any blameworthiness. 

The path of praise then if God would create infinite souls, would be inevitable, followed, without fault.

It's inevitable exalted souls exist that are more worthy to be followed then others.

It seems obvious to me, that God wants us to follow those more worthy of leadership and guidance, as opposed to those who for all we know,  are leading us and misguiding us by their whims.

Their seems to be a path that is praised in ourselves to follow, but we don't know exactly this path or if we do, we tent to forget and neglect parts of it.  Those who walked the path and reached the destination and God trusts would not deviate from the path, we would not know who they are, unless, God somehow proved their position which would make they worthy to be followed.

Aside from this, it seems that advice from God and admonishment from him would have a different effect then all others. And that God can speak to humanity in ways that addresses all of them and brings them collectively together in ways we humans cannot.

God can impress all their intellects, appeal to all of them, in ways, we don't understand how and why, and by what. He can also manifest divine glories and beauties in chapters and words, that would, manifest his personality, to all humans, and unite them on the light of his words and verify the truth by his words, in ways we cannot.

He can guide them all and express eloquence beyond that of humans only to be appreciated to the best and peak of our intellects yet still falling short, recognizing over time, that such a book has no limit to the degree it rises the intellect when appreciating it's subtle wonders.

Such a book could be the catalyst, even if neglected and not giving due right in the beginning, to uniting humanity on rope from him and manifesting leaders they ought to follow and unite upon.

It can manifest eloquently and inspire in ways, we cannot, inspire others.  

That said, such a book, to me being capable in God's power, surely would exist. There also being no way to bestow power and authority in reality that is based on truth other then through this, this would be another proof, since an authority and power to be followed by humans is better then anarchy, then, this would be the best way to unite humanity upon God's authority through giving authority to who he pleases through the divine books.

That he would unite humanity on a cause related to him, on affair related to him, through such chosen people, even though their rights and God's right linked to them, can be neglected for a long time.

That this would be the way to know who sincerely wants to help his cause and not help his cause, by having loyalty of an authority figure linked to him.

Aside from this, it seems, we have divine treasures in our souls, that we kind of neglect. A spiritual program from God in a way to exercise and hone this skills and powers, is important.

That our seeing power of our souls etc, will be developed through means of this program. 

All this I see nothing wisdom manifesting greatness, and I see it's opposite, something not befitting a majestic being.

That ultimately, it would, not leave us to ourselves, as we neglect his right, and neglect God and the light, it would remind us, call us back to the path, and try to unite us on the best of his creation and give us the most wonderful majestic honorable speech that can be said.

I was a Deist for about five years, and I've experienced in myself a void missing when we don't have a connection to God through his own words, are left to figure out everything for ourselves without guidance from his best friends, and have no rope or handhold of God to cling to.

We have all sorts of spiritual illnesses in humanity and we are in need of healing from God and his chosen ones.

---

[/hide]

You just summarized why I strongly prefer deist behavior to theist behavior.  Deists don't think that they know what god wants and therefore think for themselves.  Theists tend to think a book written a hundreds of years ago is the word of god or worse yet that god is speaking to them directly: wars, burnings, discrimination, guilt over harmless things, burdensome rituals, shunninge, and other ugliness ensue.  There's nothing like thinking your own personal moral choices are ratified by god to cause evil in the world.

If I was an Atheist, I would prefer people believe Deism out of belief no religion is true.  However as far as reflecting goes, I find the way the Quran is designed, it's designed so we reflect a lot, and a lot, to begin to scratch the surface and appreciate it.

That said, logically, God can design literature in a way that makes us reflect more so then absence of his literature. I know in English class we thought a lot about different topics. Often it was the more unspoken parts of the literature, that had implicit messages, that were the deeper and more profound impact to people.

God can design the ultimate literature, that would inspire the best type of pondering and reflecting. 

So revealing a book doesn't mean you don't think. Yes you don't think independently, but, why is that it's good to read from all sorts of people but God is not suppose to reveal any literature to humanity? 

Why is that's good to learn from everyone but God?

Something is not adding up. Again, I understand this preference if one is Atheist. 

I understand why Atheists prefer for someone to be a Deist as opposed to a Theist.

But it's not because Deism is more logical then Theism, it's simply from the perspective of the Atheist, it's better to think for ourselves, then follow someone who made up a religion blindly.

However if religion was to be from God and it was not to be followed blindly but rather upon insight and seeing it to be true upon evidences, and clear proofs for the religion, then these problems don't exist.

We are arguing in theory which is better. 

In practicality, everyone can argue they are better off then another people, that's besides the point.

[robvalue]

Edit:

Never mind.

[ignoramus]

[The Grand Nudger]

@Mystic
"If my religion were true these problems wouldn't exist"
-Negative, the problems with your religion, and religion in general, exist -regardless- of the truth of any given religion.  As regards god being able to write the perfect book..i'd have to agree, and the quran is no such book, so...QED?

[robvalue]

You said before that if Islam was true, we'd have no choice but to obey Allah.

I'm not obeying. So it can't be true.

Deism makes two assumptions:

1) This reality was created

2) The agent was intelligent

That's it. It's consistent with reality and scientific knowledge.

Any other brand of theism just makes further assumptions, adding arbitrary and untestable attributes to the agent. It also sometimes makes claims about reality, which often render it inconsistent; or the agent is given contradictory attributes making it internally inconsistent.

It's all a set of unecessary assumptions, which we have no need of to function perfectly well. I am sad that you feel you need so much guidance, rather than just thinking for yourself.

[ignoramus]

I can understand where he's coming from though.

He lost his mind to save his head!
Good trade if you ask me.

[Jenny A]

You just summarized why I strongly prefer deist behavior to theist behavior.  Deists don't think that they know what god wants and therefore think for themselves.  Theists tend to think a book written a hundreds of years ago is the word of god or worse yet that god is speaking to them directly: wars, burnings, discrimination, guilt over harmless things, burdensome rituals, shunninge, and other ugliness ensue.  There's nothing like thinking your own personal moral choices are ratified by god to cause evil in the world.

If I was an Atheist, I would prefer people believe Deism out of belief no religion is true.  

No need to capitalize atheist or deist. Neither is an organized religion or an organization of any kind. It's like capitalizing Left Handed as if that made left handed people a coherent group. It's that self thinking, lack of group think, or I know what god wants thinking, that I like about deists.

However as far as reflecting goes, I find the way the Quran is designed, it's designed so we reflect a lot, and a lot, to begin to scratch the surface and appreciate it.

I see you and others attempting to demonstrate that from time to time. Mostly though I see simple minded Islamist Fundies crying infidel! Study yes. Deep reflection, possibly. But the loudest voices don't seem very reflective to me.

That said, logically, God can design literature in a way that makes us reflect more so then absence of his literature. I know in English class we thought a lot about different topics. Often it was the more unspoken parts of the literature, that had implicit messages, that were the deeper and more profound impact to people.

God can design the ultimate literature, that would inspire the best type of pondering and reflecting. 

So revealing a book doesn't mean you don't think. Yes you don't think independently, but, why is that it's good to read from all sorts of people but God is not suppose to reveal any literature to humanity? 

I don't think that there is a god let alone a god inspiring literature.

Why is that's good to learn from everyone but God?

Something is not adding up. Again, I understand this preference if one is Atheist. 

I understand why Atheists prefer for someone to be a Deist as opposed to a Theist.

But it's not because Deism is more logical then Theism, it's simply from the perspective of the Atheist, it's better to think for ourselves, then follow someone who made up a religion blindly.[/quote]

Ah huh.

However if religion was to be from God and it was not to be followed blindly but rather upon insight and seeing it to be true upon evidences, and clear proofs for the religion, then these problems don't exist.

We are arguing in theory which is better. 

In practicality, everyone can argue they are better off then another people, that's besides the point.

The point is that there is no god inspired literature. That's it. And the literature that is supposed to be god inspired gives weight to some very ugly ideas. I'm not interested in arguing what if it were god inspired until there is some evidence it was.