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RE: You Can't Disprove a Miracle
March 11, 2016 at 12:41 pm
(March 11, 2016 at 11:19 am)Stimbo Wrote: It's not our job to prove something is not a miracle. It's your job to demonstrate that it is. The very fact that you're quibbling over definitions and the burden of proof shows that on some level you recognise the dearth of miracles available to examine.
So, are you not taking the positive position that miracles do not exist--you are just saying that there is no evidence for them. Others say there is evidence for them.
We look at each one and assign probability and when we do that, then is seems likely that miracles have happened.
I think one of your problems is frequency. You can't use frequency as a probability theory. Scientist are looking for infrequent events all the time. Secondly, we are not talking about random events--we are talking about an event caused by a supernatural free agent. In such a case, an event might be caused precisely because it is infrequent.
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RE: You Can't Disprove a Miracle
March 11, 2016 at 12:42 pm
(This post was last modified: March 11, 2016 at 12:45 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Now wait a minute...you haven't shown us how we assign a probability to a miracle at all. I don't think you can keep referring to doing so until you actually, you know...do so.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: You Can't Disprove a Miracle
March 11, 2016 at 12:46 pm
(March 11, 2016 at 12:41 pm)SteveII Wrote: (March 11, 2016 at 11:19 am)Stimbo Wrote: It's not our job to prove something is not a miracle. It's your job to demonstrate that it is. The very fact that you're quibbling over definitions and the burden of proof shows that on some level you recognise the dearth of miracles available to examine.
So, are you not taking the positive position that miracles do not exist--you are just saying that there is no evidence for them. Others say there is evidence for them.
We look at each one and assign probability and when we do that, then is seems likely that miracles have happened.
I think one of your problems is frequency. You can't use frequency as a probability theory. Scientist are looking for infrequent events all the time. Secondly, we are not talking about random events--we are talking about an event caused by a supernatural free agent. In such a case, an event might be caused precisely because it is infrequent.
Word games.
mir·a·cle
ˈmirək(ə)l/
noun
noun: miracle; plural noun: miracles
a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency.
Show evidence for one miracle. One.
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RE: You Can't Disprove a Miracle
March 11, 2016 at 1:42 pm
(This post was last modified: March 11, 2016 at 1:42 pm by SteveII.)
(March 11, 2016 at 12:46 pm)Old Baby Wrote: Word games.
mir·a·cle
ˈmirək(ə)l/
noun
noun: miracle; plural noun: miracles
a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency.
Show evidence for one miracle. One.
Okay, answer you and Rhythm together...
My brother-in-law when a child had a brain tumor. Causing seizureres. In hospital for surgery. New CT scan taken to map surgery. No tumor. Seizures stopped. Father-in-law was a minister and brother-in-law had literally hundreds of people praying.
Pr(H/K) x Pr(E/H&K)
Pr(H/E&K) = ----------------------------------------
Pr(E/K)
It is helpful to think of H as the hypothesis at issue, K as the background knowledge, and E as the new evidence. Pr(H/K&E) and Pr(H/ K) are called, respectively, the posterior and priorprobability of H. Pr(E/ H&K) is called the likelihood of H; it is a measure of how well H explains E. Pr(E/K) is variously called the prior likelihood or the expectancy of E; it is a measure of how surprising the new evidence E is.
(H) A miracle removed tumor (hypothesis)
(K) Tumors do not disappear between CT scans in a matter of weeks (background knowledge)
(E) Tumor gone. Symptoms gone (evidence)
The probability of H given K (LOW) multiplied by how well H explains E (HIGH)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Expectancy of E (LOW)
Probability is high that this was a miracle.
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RE: You Can't Disprove a Miracle
March 11, 2016 at 1:44 pm
(This post was last modified: March 11, 2016 at 1:49 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
That's not math, that's hiding your assertions -in- a mathematical equation. Are you familiar with the concept of a number? If you were, and you plugged some in, you might notice the trouble. It's worth a try...don't you think? This -was- your argument, after all. We might even want to make sure those numbers you choose line up with some standard regarding what the variables define.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: You Can't Disprove a Miracle
March 11, 2016 at 1:49 pm
(March 11, 2016 at 1:44 pm)Rhythm Wrote: That's not math, that's hiding your assertions -in- a mathematical equation. Are you familiar with the concept of a number?
You don't have to put numbers on them. Just the difference between them will give you a greater probability than the probability of H given K (LOW)
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RE: You Can't Disprove a Miracle
March 11, 2016 at 1:52 pm
(This post was last modified: March 11, 2016 at 1:54 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
If you're not putting numbers in, and there's no system of determining what those numbers are or should be...you aren't actually making an argument from probability..but an argument from ignorance by way of assertion.
You said we could do some math....you said we could assign a probability to something being miraculous. This was your baby.
If you don't plug some numbers in I will, and the jig will be up. Is there some reason you aren't jumping on this opportunity....?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: You Can't Disprove a Miracle
March 11, 2016 at 1:58 pm
(March 11, 2016 at 1:52 pm)Rhythm Wrote: If you're not putting numbers in, and there's no system of determining what those numbers are or should be...you aren't actually making an argument from probability..but an argument from ignorance by way of assertion.
You said we could do some math....you said we could assign a probability. This was your baby.
If you don't plug some numbers in I will, and the jig will be up. Is there some reason you aren't jumping on this opportunity....?
Go ahead and plug some numbers in.
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RE: You Can't Disprove a Miracle
March 11, 2016 at 2:04 pm
(This post was last modified: March 11, 2016 at 2:16 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Sure, NP.
H=0
K=0
E=0
(it's all zeros, you see)
There is zero probability that your example was a miracle. QED, right?
(I could tell you why the way you've chosen to address it won;t work as well, no matter what numbers you plug in.....but I;d like to see you do a little bit of work for your own argument rather than demand, as you've been doing, that others do work for you. It's problem is fundamental and inextricable as a proof, and you haven't shown us how to make the equation referent yet...so that's still not on the table. I'll give you a hint, let you work it out on your own..in the meantime. One of your variables there, required to even do the math, is the value the equation seeks to determine. Which one do -you- think it is, and why might that be a problem when it comes to establishing a proof for what you seek to demonstrate?)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: You Can't Disprove a Miracle
March 11, 2016 at 2:17 pm
(March 11, 2016 at 2:04 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Sure, NP.
H=0
K=0
E=0
(it's all zeros, you see)
There is zero probability that your example was a miracle. QED, right?
That's nonsense. They cannot all be zero unless you prove there are no supernatural causes to natural events. Can you do that?
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