Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: March 28, 2024, 7:10 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
You Can't Disprove a Miracle
#31
RE: You Can't Disprove a Miracle
(March 8, 2016 at 10:58 am)Drich Wrote: What kinda of hippy nonsense is this? Sure you can. You just ask them show me book chapter and verse that says a cross in the sky=war or ask them to show BCV that verifies anything they witnessed or experienced as being a 'miracle.' Their needs to be a biblical precedent for what they experienced otherwise their 'miracle' is not of God.

Bologna. Muslims and Jews and Hindus also employ the word "miracle" when they crap their pants and almost die too. And they also use their gap filling answer to point to their religions too.

Nope sorry, when you die beyond body repair you stay dead, if you survive it is merely because of the conditions, even if remote. There is no magic to life or super hero doing anything to save us or preventing us from dying.
Reply
#32
RE: You Can't Disprove a Miracle
(March 10, 2016 at 11:54 am)Drich Wrote:
(March 8, 2016 at 12:46 pm)Nymphadora Wrote: bold mine.  For starters, it's "There" not "Their". 
1) 'I've seen it both ways Your way and the right way.'
*my quotes are in blue as to avoid confusion.
The right way is the way I corrected you. That's standard English and anyone who's in third grade will tell you as such.

Quote:Now, for the rest of your post. The bible isn't proof of anything. And you know it.

Quote:By the very definition of the word it is indeed. It is just not accepted as 'proof' by everyone.

Wrong drippy. There's thousands of religions out there. Multiple versions of the bible are out there. You have no proof that your version is the "right" version. Furthermore, you still can't produce scientific evidence that *any* bible is even accurate. Your reasoning continues to be circular.
Just like this:

[Image: 1290963243294.jpg]

Quote:This has been argued to death with you and yet, you still refuse to accept that.

Quote:You are still at best a noob and haven't argued anything. If you wish to then please provide your strong (cut and paste) case.

Nope. I didn't say I was the one to argue it. Furthermore, I have a life and it is not to sit here and quote mine just to make a point that you already know. I guess, like your bible, you'll just have to take my word for it.

Quote:The bible is a piece of literature that was written by man from copies of copies of copies of manuscripts that were NOT original.

Quote:That's not valid statement.

Sure it is. You just refuse to accept it because it's a truth that you can't handle.

Quote:How can you still continue to believe that the bible is any sort of proof of a god?

Quote:Because the bible says do XYZ and God will 123. I did XYZ and received 123.
See the picture above. It tell us all about your logic.
Disclaimer: I am only responsible for what I say, not what you choose to understand. 
(November 14, 2018 at 8:57 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: Have a good day at work.  If we ever meet in a professional setting, let me answer your question now.  Yes, I DO want fries with that.
Reply
#33
RE: You Can't Disprove a Miracle
You have to define what a miracle is. A miracle is an event which is beyond the productive capacity of the natural causes which exist at the time and place of the occurrence of the event.

Probability theory dictates that we not only weigh the probability of the event being a miracle, but compare it to the event being a result of naturalistic causes and the probability of the evidence given the two alternatives. The lower the probability of naturalistic causes, the greater the probability the event was a miracle.

Mary recovering from a pneumonia = low probability of being a miracle/high probability or naturalistic causes = very low probability of being a miracle.
A paralyzed man from birth getting up an walking at the instant someone tells him to = low probability of being a miracle/even lower probability of naturalistic causes = a high probability of being a miracle.

So, if an event takes place and it is beyond the productive capacity of natural causes, how can you say with certainty it is not a miracle? You would have to make (and successfully defend) the claim there is nothing beyond naturalistic causes (nothing supernatural).
Reply
#34
RE: You Can't Disprove a Miracle
Let's see some maths Steve. Throwing the word probability around won't mean much without that. Come up with a formula, define your variables...and when you're done....I'll remind you it was all for naught. People win the lottery, after all.

Burden shifting noted, and ignored.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#35
RE: You Can't Disprove a Miracle
It's not our job to prove something is not a miracle. It's your job to demonstrate that it is. The very fact that you're quibbling over definitions and the burden of proof shows that on some level you recognise the dearth of miracles available to examine.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist.  This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair.  Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second.  That means there's a situation vacant.'
Reply
#36
RE: You Can't Disprove a Miracle
There are plenty of things that would at least make us go 'hmmmm'. Like if there was a Roman record that some guy Jesus said he was going to move a mountain into the ocean, and a later document was like WTF, he did it; guess I'm going to be a Christian now; and we have a mountain whose location was well-known in ancient times out in the bay with evidence of a great geological disturbance leading from its current location to its old one ('mountain tracks'). Nothing we know of geology would account for that. We might be able to speculate explanations (aliens?), but we couldn't say something amazing didn't happen that we can't really account for in the known laws of nature.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
Reply
#37
RE: You Can't Disprove a Miracle
(March 11, 2016 at 11:17 am)Rhythm Wrote: Let's see some maths Steve.  Throwing the word probability around won't mean much without that.  Come up with a formula, define your variables...and when you're done....I'll remind you it was all for naught.  People win the lottery, after all.

Burden shifting noted, and ignored.


I am NOT a mathematician, but here is a cut and paste of the equation.


Pr(H/E&K) = Pr(H/K) x Pr(E/H&K) 
----------------------------------------
Pr(E/K) 

Earman says It is helpful to think of H as the hypothesis at issue, K as the background knowledge, and E as the new evidence. Pr(H/K&E) and Pr(H/ K) are called, respectively, the posterior and priorprobability of H. Pr(E/ K&H) is called the likelihood of H; it is a measure of how well H explains E. Pr(E/K) is variously called the prior likelihood or the expectancy of E; it is a measure of how surprising the new evidence E is. 

http://www.humesociety.org/hs/issues/v28...-v28n1.pdf

Are you skeptical when there is a report of a lottery winner because of the improbability? No, because the probability that the report is true of a lottery winner is high because the probability of a false report is low.
Reply
#38
RE: You Can't Disprove a Miracle
Excellent, a starting point.  Now, if you please, what are the values of the variables you have defined specifically as regards the scenario you are trying to describe? Apply this equation to a miracle of your own choosing.

My skepticism as regards anything is irrelevant to your argument from probability, I see no need to clutter the discussion with it. Math is math, let's do that.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#39
RE: You Can't Disprove a Miracle
SteveII Wrote:
Rhythm Wrote:Let's see some maths Steve.  Throwing the word probability around won't mean much without that.  Come up with a formula, define your variables...and when you're done....I'll remind you it was all for naught.  People win the lottery, after all.

Burden shifting noted, and ignored.


I am NOT a mathematician, but here is a cut and paste of the equation.


Pr(H/E&K) = Pr(H/K) x Pr(E/H&K) 
----------------------------------------
Pr(E/K) 

Earman says It is helpful to think of H as the hypothesis at issue, K as the background knowledge, and E as the new evidence. Pr(H/K&E) and Pr(H/ K) are called, respectively, the posterior and priorprobability of H. Pr(E/ K&H) is called the likelihood of H; it is a measure of how well H explains E. Pr(E/K) is variously called the prior likelihood or the expectancy of E; it is a measure of how surprising the new evidence E is. 

http://www.humesociety.org/hs/issues/v28...-v28n1.pdf

Are you skeptical when there is a report of a lottery winner because of the improbability? No, because the probability that the report is true of a lottery winner is high because the probability of a false report is low.

Our experience is that the probability of a false report of a miracle is very high. Countless claimed miracles have turned out to be hoaxes or easily explainable through natural processes. Is that factored in to your equation?
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
Reply
#40
RE: You Can't Disprove a Miracle
Are we defining a miracle as an improbable event now?
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist.  This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair.  Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second.  That means there's a situation vacant.'
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  What is the lamest "miracle"? Thor 32 6167 November 23, 2022 at 1:40 pm
Last Post: BrianSoddingBoru4
  The false miracle of Fatima now a movie Foxaèr 17 1622 September 6, 2020 at 2:03 pm
Last Post: Fake Messiah
  The Miracle of the Sun. Jehanne 9 1405 August 20, 2018 at 8:38 am
Last Post: Jehanne
  Miracle Spring water Joods 24 3649 June 27, 2018 at 11:04 pm
Last Post: Joods
Question Why do you people say there is no evidence,when you can't be bothered to look for it? Jaguar 74 20083 November 5, 2017 at 7:17 pm
Last Post: GUBU
  The undeniable miracle at Fatima pabsta 582 153117 August 19, 2017 at 1:00 pm
Last Post: Astonished
  Another fake Catholic miracle. Jehanne 96 19094 August 11, 2017 at 1:55 pm
Last Post: Brian37
  Proof of a Miracle? TrueChristian 13 4125 December 19, 2015 at 11:40 am
Last Post: Nay_Sayer
  Hi, I'm a Christian. Help Me Disprove My Religion! WishfulThinking 265 59394 October 11, 2015 at 9:20 am
Last Post: Cyberman
  With Science and Archaeology and Miracle's evidence for God TheThinkingCatholic 35 11019 September 20, 2015 at 11:32 am
Last Post: Fidel_Castronaut



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)