War crimes of the west

[Jackie]

[Wyrd of Gawd]

[Jackie]

Atlas, this is about human behavior and our species history. Humans stupidly conflate their local social norms as being the entirety of the planet and the entirety of of our species history. Atheists in America get looked down upon, my younger sister was treated with fear and suspect and treated like shit when she first came out. Now certainly we are not arrested or murdered for our lack of belief. But Sunnis and Shiites do not hold the same compassion for each other or for non Muslims in far too much of the theocratic Middle East. It does not have to be all 1 billion Muslims, no, but between the west and the east the minorities here have more recourse to have legal defenses and have others arrested for physically harming them.

I personally have been yelled at in public, I have had a guy try to have me fired and I am sure if we had no Constitution to protect me many of our Christian would behave in the same dark age climate they used to. I've been lucky, other atheists have not been so lucky, like those arrested and whipped and imprisoned in Saudi Arabia, or murdered in parts of Asia. But of course Muslims can be victims and so can any non majority depending on location.

The words "minority" and "majority" are geographical. If you are raised and passed down a location's majority social norms in that location you are part of the majority. A Christian or atheist living in Egypt are going to be the minority. A Muslim or Jew or atheist are going to be the minority in America. A Jew or Muslim or Christian living in Denmark are going to be the minority.

A Japanese or Chinese person migrating to America is going to be a minority. But guess what, no matter if you are geographically located with a majority of like minded groups, or if you move to or live in a place where you are the smallest group, one thing DOES NOT CHANGE, we are STILL all the same species, all 7 billion of us.

[ReptilianPeon]

[WinterHold]

Brian37

Apologies; I missed your first comment, Brian.

@Atlas, I DO hate it when many in the west ignore our own transgressions. I agree with remembering history as not to repeat it. But it still remains at this point in history between the west and the east, we still do a better job protecting pluralism compared to the political states run on religion in the East.

America certainly has done some shitty things to others, Native Americans, slavery sexism and I certainly hated that we invaded Iraq based on a lie. That still does not make the East a bastion of pluralism nor does it justify your own religion's religiously justified violence.

Two wrongs don't make a right. And don't assume that just because there are asshole xenophobic bigots and a politician like Trump playing off their fears that everyone in the west likes him. I don't I think he is a sick fuck. It still does not justify assholes like Bin Ladin. Not even Bin Ladin's own family liked him.

I never believed it was justified; the bigotry of both parties, nothing justifies bigotry and criminality, nobody is perfect, and everybody must stand and face their sins, even on the personal scale.

This is the problem with ALL religions. This is the problem with the idea of religion itself. Humans hide behind religion in order to give themselves a sense of false superiority over others and while it may bring comfort to one group it always ends up needlessly pitting humans against each other to the point of cruelty.

How about instead of assuming everyone in the west hates you, how about you stop assuming that is a justification for those in your religion. BELIEVE ME there are lots of people in the west that hate our right wingers as much as we hate islam's right wingers. But that still does not change that the books of all three religions ARE used to justify tribalism and that pits humans against other humans.

I think humans would blanket themselves with any excuse; that's our number 1 defense mechanism against criticism. Anything can be used to justify atrocities, I don't think that it's religion only.
But it's the attempt of giving "desire" a meaning.
That is the ghetto mentality you're seeing here -the "they hate me !"- ; which I sadly inherited, because of the media. 
The rightists -through years- bombarded the world with the worst types of bigoted media, and it just exploded with the advent of the internet. 

Did you not read a fucking thing in my prior post? YES WE'VE DONE SOME SHITTY THINGS, but that does not mean the East is violence free but compared to the west we do a far better job protecting political and religious pluralism. NOW AGAIN humans can be cruel and nobody likes it, but that does not justify the theocracies of the east's justifications for violence. Abu Ghraib was horrible and I also hate Gitmo too, but I am not the president myself nor am I the dictator of my entire government.
 
I hated Bush and I also hate Trump. But this is what religion does, it allows the powers on all sides to divide our species.

I'm not generalizing, Brian. I use the term "west" just as a pointer; people are not the same and amen to that.

No, free speech includes getting offended and getting your claims picked on, and just so you know, I have been falsely called BOTH anti Semite and an Islamaphobe. But to say nobody in Islam wants the west as dead as you claim many Christians do or westerners do, would be a lie. EVERY country has their fear mongers and their warmongers. I don't like mine anymore than I like yours.

That does not mean you can or should ban all offensive speech. It is a very bad idea to make blanket solutions on speech. The problem is that there are Christians who, if had the power would censor you AND me. In the west offensive speech is protected, not because we like it, but because we want to be able ourselves to say what we want as well. 

Where speech ends that nobody has the right to is calls to violence or acting out in violence. I damned sure would call police or FBI if I uncovered a plot by others to murder Muslims living here in the states. I would do the same for any non violent citizen or migrant. YOU ARE A HUMAN BEING TO ME FIRST! And I WILL ALWAYS value protecting any non violent fellow human. 

Count as a supporter for what you said; and I'm against any type of censorship. My comment to divinity about anti-semitesm was only a sarcastic note, nobody should avoid criticism, and everybody must speak their minds freely.

The first step on the road is Muslims beginning to admit the atrocities happened in the past, by early Muslims, especially those hapening under the blanket of Islam (like the invasion of spain).

Posted by Pandæmonium - 11 hours ago

[ReptilianPeon]

I t hink Atlas has every right to be angry. But this forum is the wrong place to vent that angry. Most people here are very educated on the issues and already know how bad, and hypocritical, the West, particularly the United States can be.

[robvalue]

I t hink Atlas has every right to be angry. But this forum is the wrong place to vent that angry. Most people here are very educated on the issues and already know how bad, and hypocritical, the West, particularly the United States can be.

Right. You're preaching to the choir Atlas. I've not heard one (sane) person here claim the West has never done anything bad. Quite the contrary in fact.

[The Grand Nudger]

Venting anger would be "hey, the west did some nasty shit!"-  to which many, myself included, would reply; "no shit, how much time you got buddy."

Instead, we get "hey, the west did some nasty shit, check out this quran verse!".  To which I reply; "no shit, still don't care."

[Jackie]

I t hink Atlas has every right to be angry. But this forum is the wrong place to vent that angry. Most people here are very educated on the issues and already know how bad, and hypocritical, the West, particularly the United States can be.

Yes and no. Yes there is lots to be angry at bigots for, and every war America has been involved in since WW2 has been a stalemate and quagmire that really ends up doing nothing but wasting money and getting civilians and soldiers needlessly killed.

But it still does not justify the horrible interpretations of the Quran and Hadiths that have even Sunni's and Shiites killing each other.Two wrongs don't make a right, and again, between the east and the west, the west is still a much more open society with many more protections of minorities and free speech. No we are NOT perfect, but we also are not run on one sect of one religion.

Alot of misunderstanding between the west and east is still due to one part of the world still living in an antiquated past. 7 billion humans should tell all parties that nobody in reality is the alpha male and in the end we should treat each other as individuals FIRST. 

If Muslims don't like guilt by association, what makes them think westerners like that either. I don't always agree with what my government does, but I am still stuck here regardless.

[Jackie]

Brian37

Apologies; I missed your first comment, Brian.

@Atlas, I DO hate it when many in the west ignore our own transgressions. I agree with remembering history as not to repeat it. But it still remains at this point in history between the west and the east, we still do a better job protecting pluralism compared to the political states run on religion in the East.

America certainly has done some shitty things to others, Native Americans, slavery sexism and I certainly hated that we invaded Iraq based on a lie. That still does not make the East a bastion of pluralism nor does it justify your own religion's religiously justified violence.

Two wrongs don't make a right. And don't assume that just because there are asshole xenophobic bigots and a politician like Trump playing off their fears that everyone in the west likes him. I don't I think he is a sick fuck. It still does not justify assholes like Bin Ladin. Not even Bin Ladin's own family liked him.

I never believed it was justified; the bigotry of both parties, nothing justifies bigotry and criminality, nobody is perfect, and everybody must stand and face their sins, even on the personal scale.

This is the problem with ALL religions. This is the problem with the idea of religion itself. Humans hide behind religion in order to give themselves a sense of false superiority over others and while it may bring comfort to one group it always ends up needlessly pitting humans against each other to the point of cruelty.

How about instead of assuming everyone in the west hates you, how about you stop assuming that is a justification for those in your religion. BELIEVE ME there are lots of people in the west that hate our right wingers as much as we hate islam's right wingers. But that still does not change that the books of all three religions ARE used to justify tribalism and that pits humans against other humans.

I think humans would blanket themselves with any excuse; that's our number 1 defense mechanism against criticism. Anything can be used to justify atrocities, I don't think that it's religion only.
But it's the attempt of giving "desire" a meaning.
That is the ghetto mentality you're seeing here -the "they hate me !"- ; which I sadly inherited, because of the media. 
The rightists -through years- bombarded the world with the worst types of bigoted media, and it just exploded with the advent of the internet. 

Did you not read a fucking thing in my prior post? YES WE'VE DONE SOME SHITTY THINGS, but that does not mean the East is violence free but compared to the west we do a far better job protecting political and religious pluralism. NOW AGAIN humans can be cruel and nobody likes it, but that does not justify the theocracies of the east's justifications for violence. Abu Ghraib was horrible and I also hate Gitmo too, but I am not the president myself nor am I the dictator of my entire government.
 
I hated Bush and I also hate Trump. But this is what religion does, it allows the powers on all sides to divide our species.

I'm not generalizing, Brian. I use the term "west" just as a pointer; people are not the same and amen to that.

No, free speech includes getting offended and getting your claims picked on, and just so you know, I have been falsely called BOTH anti Semite and an Islamaphobe. But to say nobody in Islam wants the west as dead as you claim many Christians do or westerners do, would be a lie. EVERY country has their fear mongers and their warmongers. I don't like mine anymore than I like yours.

That does not mean you can or should ban all offensive speech. It is a very bad idea to make blanket solutions on speech. The problem is that there are Christians who, if had the power would censor you AND me. In the west offensive speech is protected, not because we like it, but because we want to be able ourselves to say what we want as well. 

Where speech ends that nobody has the right to is calls to violence or acting out in violence. I damned sure would call police or FBI if I uncovered a plot by others to murder Muslims living here in the states. I would do the same for any non violent citizen or migrant. YOU ARE A HUMAN BEING TO ME FIRST! And I WILL ALWAYS value protecting any non violent fellow human. 

Count as a supporter for what you said; and I'm against any type of censorship. My comment to divinity about anti-semitesm was only a sarcastic note, nobody should avoid criticism, and everybody must speak their minds freely.

The first step on the road is Muslims beginning to admit the atrocities happened in the past, by early Muslims, especially those hapening under the blanket of Islam (like the invasion of spain).

Posted by Pandæmonium - 11 hours ago

Yes you should be against any type of censorship, I agree, and if more of the Middle East were not so sensitive and did a better job of protecting free speech and a free press, they'd figure out a "fuck you" or a bullshit" isn't the worst thing in the world. But it should always stop at calls for violence and acts of violence. Civilians should always have great latitude to offend each other but much moreso the powers that be have a greater responsibility to avoid xenophobia and demagoguery. Without that ability to offend the powers that be you end up with horrible states like North Korea, and sorry, it isn't like Saudi Arabia or Iran are bastions for dissent. 

Now outside that, no matter the label, my neighbor, regardless if they share the same politics or religion, or even if they hate my ideas, do not have the right to assault me nor do I have the right to assault them if we offend each other. I will most certainly call the police if I knew someone was going to harm a Jew or Muslim or Christian, or their property. Not because I think their god/s are real, I don't, I still say that  all religions are a result of gap filling and that they cause more problems than they solve. But it still remains that a human is a human is a human, and as long as you are not violent with me the worst you will get is a "fuck you" or "bullshit". 

Humans have rights, but ideas that require violence to defend are not done so out of correctness, but ego, or insecurity.