War crimes of the west

[The Grand Nudger]

I did not ever think that any of you would EVER admit what you just said!!!

Could have stopped after the first five words on that one bud.  It gives context to the rest of the sentence and your surprise.

[Brian37]

Are you a Holocaust denier or something? I mean that's a pretty stupid list if you are going to come up with war crimes of the west.

Here is a hint: Every culture has committed genocide. Everybody is descended from both slaves and slavers. Nobody is blameless. Welcome to being a human.

I did not ever think that any of you would EVER admit what you just said!!!

Oh bull, we've both been on for years, I have said not just on this page but in my 15 years that the west also has it's transgressions. Others here as well have known our history as well.

It is why while we call you a crybaby sometimes here, we are well aware that say Kurdish Christians in Iraq are victims. It is why we can accept the Muslim civilians killed by Bush's lie are victims, but not whiners here in the states who don't live under that threat. It is also why we did condemn the ATHEIST who murdered the 3 Muslims in NC who were dental students. It is why we have empathy for the 9 blacks murdered by the racist in the SC Church.

Humans do go from victim to abuser, but that doesn't make a god real, not any.

[Drich]

I did not ever think that any of you would EVER admit what you just said!!!

Could have stopped after the first five words on that one bud.  It gives context to the rest of the sentence and your surprise.

Durpa Durpa doo

[Drich]

I did not ever think that any of you would EVER admit what you just said!!!

Oh bull, we've both been on for years, I have said not just on this page but in my 15 years that the west also has it's transgressions. Others here as well have known our history as well.

It is why while we call you a crybaby sometimes here, we are well aware that say Kurdish Christians in Iraq are victims. It is why we can accept the Muslim civilians killed by Bush's lie are victims, but not whiners here in the states who don't live under that threat. It is also why we did condemn the ATHEIST who murdered the 3 Muslims in NC who were dental students. It is why we have empathy for the 9 blacks murdered by the racist in the SC Church.

Humans do go from victim to abuser, but that doesn't make a god real, not any.

See the above post

[WinterHold]

I'll admit there are some crazy characters here, though not many, that do need educating on how the West has negatively influenced Arabia. But I won't name names as there is a degree of subjectivity involved. The video of George W. Bush kissing Saudi royalty is so telling. They allow al-Saud to spread their hate precisely because they have such a blinding hatred of such things as Socialism and Communism, and to keep secular Arab governments in check. They want to subvert Syria to make Russia and Iran weaker and will stop at nothing.

It's pretty much a historical fact; a big flaw is there in one's system if they ignored the domino effect: if one group of humans did bad (the first domino), if it weighed heavily enough, is going to take down the whole rest; falling just like the first did.

Arabs look up to westerners, and not seeing that is just -to me- an act of ignoring history and obvious observation. 





As you described it: it is weird for people to say that the west has no influence (not even the slightest). But subjectivity and dependence of thought is indeed a red line.

cato

I prefer the UN's pedo rape stories:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world.../80057004/

ISIS is bad and all, but honestly I do believe its a western/zionist project, executed through Arab men and lots of Mossad agents who know how to copy cat Muslims.

Brian37

Again, the idea of religion itself is the root cause. It isn't that you can rid the world of it by force, but more inso that humans don't want to face the fact that it causes humans to be divided. It still remains however, when you compare the East to the West we still do a much better job keeping different religions civil. 

Everything should be put under judgement so we validate things correctly, I believe that a perfect religion would survive criticism though -by itself-, and find its way into people's hearts. The biggest sign of weakness is what many Muslims do at the slightest criticism (Charlie Hebdo being my example). There is a broad and wide standards that ensure the individual's freedoms, I totally agree on following such a doctrine, but people will always be divided. Especially if freedom was guaranteed. I do believe though, that Islam is one of the fewest religions that keep this freedom for all through its commands.

Human cruelty is not a patent owned by one label, no. And no religion in the world deserves to be scrutiny free, not Jews not Christians not Islam, not even atheist(not a religion, but still).  

Exactly.

Our species evolved to form groups, and unfortunately we attach labels that really amount to nothing more than excuses to gain control over our environments. Safety in numbers allows our species to have more opportunity at resources and more opportunity at producing offspring. The problem with ALL religions worldwide is this mundane reality gets turned into a comic book reflection of what we do naturally, and our species ignorance of this allows us to treat the "other" as a sub species.

Now again having said that, instead of asking for the same protection you say Jews have, what we should all value is common law in that of non violence and arrest anyone of any label when they incite violence. But again, that is a matter of local secular law, global politics is much more difficult but still needs to work more to those ends.

That's the fine we pay for being "social" since birth. We always need a "gang", a "group of friends"; a "family", then it becomes "us and them", then it becomes "it's either us or them". We must regulate this instinct or it will eat the good side in us; turning it into a racist side.
My comment about Jews was sarcastic. Freedom and protection -as you said- must be given to everybody; I have nothing against that. Actually, I'm ordered by my God not to interfere with what people do unless they hurt me. That concept is in the core of Islam.

It still remains there is far less freedom in the East even between Sunnis and Shiites, which is just as bad and oppressive as Kim Jong Un. The fact you are here making this post without fear of anyone here is testimony of the value of an open society. There is no polite way to say that the East simply is nowhere near as open. 

Nobody should deny the needless deaths the Iraq war caused. Nobody should deny the bigotry our right wingers sell. Nobody should deny the holocaust or the genocide of Native Americans or Slavery. But again, you still have it better living in the west than you would in far to much of the middle east. Atheists and gays and Christians and minority Muslims depending where they are stuck in the East have much more to fear than those living in the west. 

Never claimed the opposite. The sykes-picot states (precisely) are gulags where nobody has the freedom to even scratch, have no personalities, no "self awareness", ignorance is being forced as a legitimate substitute for knowledge, but are we like that, or is there somebody who did this to us? we allowed it to happen , but the foreign policy that brought the sad consequence, is guilty indeed. The east did not become like this on its own, I just try to draw the map with all the crossroads.

But yeah, the west is more advanced than the eastern WW1 scene -which was successfully occupied and totally followed western political example-. Western domination should've treated us nice, but secularism -that looks like Hillary Clinton's smile- didn't play us fair; I know you don't agree on it Brian, but the scene of squished infant that died with his family, because a military prick wanted to be a money spoon for a fat boss..that's pretty bad, and does make me open this door because knowing the past makes you unlock the future.

In the west while we have the right to pick on anything and everything and each other, we don't get to be a mob rule. The East still has not caught up with the west politically in this concept of government neutrality. AGAIN that does not give Israel a pass, they've done some shitty things too. But not because they are Jews. Islamic states have supported shitty things. And America has done shitty things. 

It isn't that humans are incapable of compassion, it is that we are far too tribal and local and we don't understand that we are the same species and that the earth is the only home all 7 billion of us have.

In each pile of shit, we have to identify who shitted the pile, and who -sadly- caught its smell or..stain; i.e identify the victim and the guilty suspect, and respond with everything we can do; for the tragedy never come to be again.
Despite our tribe or faith. 

[WinterHold]

And Atlas, if you want to know where our aggression come from? It comes from the same mentality your nuts come from, the attitude of divine authority, I fight the following for the same reason you should want less religion in in politics in the East.

These same assholes would not want "In Allah We Trust" plastered in public schools, so no, religious pulpit politics is bad no matter who is attempting it. But again, it still remains we have better stop gaps and more free speech to prevent religious fascism from arising. I also would not want to live under a government monopolized by the likes of these idiots.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyath...ic-school/

That motto was never on anything at the founding of America, and was a result of our right wingers trying to turn back the clock, and we unfortunately have suffered from religion trying to assault our anti monopoly concepts on religion.

You just called for the practice of a Quran verse that God taught humanity in it about the freedom of reiligious choice:

( sura 2 verse 256 )   There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing. 

I would think we'll get along just fine.

[WinterHold]

Regarding the use of atomic bombs against Japan:

Both cities were the military capitals of their prefects. Hiroshima had nearly 90,000 soldiers in the city. The Minister of War had declared that all adult or nearly adult Japanese were soldiers, militarizing most of the population of each city. Both cities were centers of war material production.

And it was at Hiroshima Bay that Yamamoto anchored his flagship, Nagato, and waited for the results of his pet project, the raid on Pearl Harbor. Kismet this!

The place was crawling with civilians, the real display of how much you believe in the right of others to live; if you have a sense of justice, you will never bomb civilians if that would make you win the war.

Leave soldiers die. But don't mass kill like that. You think it's okay because it's a massacre in a modern way, bombs, jets and all?
It's like Richard the Lion Heart's massacres in the Levant, it's like defending that.

The military interest doesn't worth innocent human life, the soldiers are enough.

Chas

It's very ironic, since the word "semistism" is nothing more than a biblical concept:

from the biblical "Shem", : שם

So attacking the biblical reference is an insult to the sons of Israel since it touches their literal heritage.
What is semitic but a religious narrative?

The Valkyrie

I can't find a proper name, saying "the bad people in Europe who contributed to the M.E's death" is a very long; saying west -wa kalas- is so much better.
Anybody can get the big picture; I'm not generalizing. Good people exist everywhere.

Rhythm 

It did prevent ancient Arabs from burying little girls; though.
I's your inner peace, and ultimate peace of mind.

Drich

That's not true Dresden was a Rail hub of what remained of Germany @ the end of the war. it was also one of the last remaining manufacturing strong holds of germany with 110 Operational factories that was continuing to support the war effort. Once Dresden fell the war ended with in a month. In short Dresden was the last city able to support the war effort.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of...rld_War_II
It's no different than cowardly Islamist fighters using mosks and schools to headquarter in. If the cowards hide behind civilians then the civilians have a responsibility to leave or be deemed combatants as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of...or_justifi

Did you read your own link, Drich?
You believing in one view, does not mean the debate is over and the correct statement is chosen

According to the historian Sönke Neitzel, "it is difficult to find any evidence in German documents that the destruction of Dresden had any consequences worth mentioning on the Eastern Front. The industrial plants of Dresden played no significant role in German industry at this stage in the war".[137]

[/url]

In the above artical it details the german defense. It was light as the war was comming to an end, but it was indeed defended. To say otherwise is an outright lie. 

If the German army wanted this area defended, the 'Merica & Britain's airplanes, would've got it harsher and herder; with lots of casualties. We're speaking about "Germany" in the 40s; the Nazi army was capable of defending its interests. 
This city was NOT defended because nobody thought, that the allies would be that mad to target refugees and civilians. That city had nothing but memorials, lots of refugees and civilian manufactures.
Actually, the allies missed "every single military camp" outside dresden.

Hiroshima was the LARGEST Japanese marsheling city for quick soldier and supply distribution incase of a main land invasion. There were several batiallions of men equipment and supplies at the time of the bombing. The reason being it was semi centrally located/hub city with roads and rail access that put it with in a day's travel of any planned invasion. Nagasaki was the Largest sea port in Japan whic not only allow the Japanese to receive provisions, but also served what was left of their navy. Which again makes it a military target. Not to mention The US dropped over 63 million leaflets warning the citizens of the comming bombs.
[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bom...d_Nagasaki

If their was ever a war crime committed it would be in the fire bombing of tokyo. Even Gen. LeMay said "we'd better win this war, because otherwise I will be hung as a war criminal."

I truly need to question your Christianity; even if you were an idol worshiper, where is your belief in God? so it's legal to kill innocent people if the "interest" is large enough?
I never asked for the military advantage of hitting something. I'm speaking about morals, taught by our lord. God.
Jesus peace be upon him, tried to show us the way, but people like you ended up wearing him as a neckless and negate every word he said: your hearts became harder than stone and crimes became so justified to you.
Ask Jesus -Peace be Upon Him- if he would push the button of dropping the payload, or wouldn't he..

Meh... One man's war crime, is another man's war.

And the other man's war, is the third man's lunch..big mac, super up-size, but we should avoid fats and extra callories because they interfere with our inner systems
And the third man's was which is a lunch, became the forth man's meal..cooked on the oven, not heated with microwave and khalas !!!

Maybe you should also include the drone attacks, smart bombs, Special forces strikes and everything else you think that gives the west a tactical advantage.

ah, the problem was never the technology; it was always the man behind the trigger.
FatandFaithless
No, I'm just re-mention it since its giving me a headache..the more I discuss, the more I understand things.

GawdZilla

It's called "war" for a reason. My job was to kill people and break things. I did it remarkably well.

You do everything people tell you to do?

Drich

 

I did not ever think that any of you would EVER admit what you just said!!!

Oh ma gosh ! Busted !

[The Grand Nudger]

It did prevent ancient Arabs from burying little girls; though.
I's your inner peace, and ultimate peace of mind.

Sure, except that it didn't. You seem to have forgotten, if you ever knew, that your religion is the product of one of the most impressive imperial military expansions in history. That Umma of Old you fantasize about was brutal, ruthless, and efficient.

[Gawdzilla]

Same old drivel. Civilians, boo hoo! The Japanese government had militarized the populace, all adults were combatants by their own definition. And they moved war industries into the cities, into the workers' homes. That made them legitimate target of attack.

"It's like Richard the Lion Heart's massacres in the Levant, it's like defending that."

Yeah, the good Christian king Richard. I remember his barbarities in the name of God. Do you?

[ReptilianPeon]

AtlasS33, those photographs you shared with us make me want to vomit. Precisely the sort of thing I've been trying to explain to Drich in the other topic. The United States support Pakistani genocide in Bangladesh (especially of Hindus), they give al-Saud terrorists (and their subsidiaries) all of the latest gear and gadgets, and meanwhile you have people trying to explain away all this because they don't want to admit that the United States gives money and weapons to terrorists.