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RE: Proving God in 20 statements
April 1, 2016 at 5:03 pm
(This post was last modified: April 1, 2016 at 5:13 pm by smfortune.)
(April 1, 2016 at 5:02 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: (April 1, 2016 at 4:49 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I'm with Alex on this.
What does this actually mean ? Aside from the statement being vague enough to not be utile, it may very well be false.
Boru
... and if it's true, what caused the Causer? Note (iii) of the proof dealt with this: (iii) God is "first cause" by definition and therefore not needed to be caused; however, God still does not necessarily violate the premise that all things are caused because the premise allows for self-causation, which can be applied to God: God causes God to exist. ...... But removing God does not get rid of the need for a first cause. Suppose the Universe is self-causing, what created the created the universe in the first place? The criticism is really, really misplaced.
(April 1, 2016 at 8:04 am)RozKek Wrote: God of the gaps everytime. "We don't know the answer, therefore geud". "We don't see another answer, therefore jebus". Like Rob said: arguments aren't evidence for god.
There's no gap here. We know that scientific explanations will be either incomplete or inconsistent and they are in such a way so that an explanation of the Universe must regress to an infinitely great power, i.e. God. This isn't a gap. It's an inescapable fact.
(April 1, 2016 at 4:11 pm)Alex K Wrote: (April 1, 2016 at 4:06 pm)smfortune Wrote: Thanks guys (and gals) for taking the time to respond.
For those arguing the no uncaused things /quantum fluctuations, etc. premise, this was addressed in notes (i), (ii) and (iii) of the proof.
That's not what we argued. You need to establish what the word means in the context, and then that the premise so defined is true.
We didn't argue anything. I presented a proof asking for criticism or rebuttal. Causation is typically defined as: connection between two events or states such that one produces or brings about the other; where one is the cause and other is its effect. Also called causality. There is no contention here.
(April 1, 2016 at 4:47 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: "God still does not necessarily violate the premise that all things are caused because the premise allows for self-causation, which can be applied to God: God causes God to exist."
  What a circular convoluted pile of bullshit. Why do theists try so desperately to prove that their imaginary friend exists? When the imaginary friend shows up and says "hi" it will be worth paying attention. Until then, it's irrelevant.
Your colorful language is quite indicative. However, there is an escapable "bullshit": either God is self causing or the Universe is self-causing. Remove God and your still left with a first cause problem.
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RE: Proving God in 20 statements
April 1, 2016 at 5:20 pm
What problem would that be? I don't mind saying "I don't know", problem solved.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Proving God in 20 statements
April 1, 2016 at 5:22 pm
(April 1, 2016 at 5:20 pm)Rhythm Wrote: What problem would that be? I don't mind saying "I don't know", problem solved. Oh, a causation problem. Who caused the causer?
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RE: Proving God in 20 statements
April 1, 2016 at 5:36 pm
This is outside my knowledge base but here:
http://skepticsplay.blogspot.com/2009/04...ument.html
The rest of you should find it's website. It takes a lot of liberties.
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem.
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RE: Proving God in 20 statements
April 1, 2016 at 5:38 pm
(April 1, 2016 at 5:36 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: This is outside my knowledge base but here:
http://skepticsplay.blogspot.com/2009/04...ument.html
The rest of you should find it's website. It takes a lot of liberties.
This is Gödel's ontological argument. I do not present Gödel's ontological argument (Gödel was a theist himself); I have no comment on that. I present an argument invoking Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem.
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RE: Proving God in 20 statements
April 1, 2016 at 5:39 pm
Why "who"? Why not "what"? It might turn out actually to be a "who", but why limit your options at the start?
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: Proving God in 20 statements
April 1, 2016 at 5:49 pm
The greatest conceivable being is one that does not exist, a being that does not exist can not make mistakes and is thus perfect.
Moving on...
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RE: Proving God in 20 statements
April 1, 2016 at 6:08 pm
(This post was last modified: April 1, 2016 at 6:11 pm by Redbeard The Pink.)
"I know! I'll dress up the First Cause argument using a lot of text and a bunch of math, then accuse anyone who doesn't agree with me of not reading it or not understanding it! THAT'LL show those ATHEISTS!"
 Yeah, no, I read the whole thing, and it's still bullshit. All you're trying to do is argue/define your god into existence, and it looks like you're making some leaps that don't seem to be supported at all. Presuming the Universe is finite, there's no reason to believe it would take an infinite energy source to generate it. It might take a vast energy source, but I see no evidence here for the assertion that it would have to be infinite.
Furthermore, trying to worm your way into being able to say that "God caused God" doesn't stop your argument from being fallacious and ill-formed; in fact, it doesn't even stop it from being special pleading. If you're positing that God caused God, then you're allowing for the possibility that things can cause themselves, meaning the Universe could have caused itself. If God is the only thing that can cause itself, then you're back to special pleading.
If you're positing a First Cause that is outside space-time, I'd love to know how you know anything about this Cause at all, or how you present evidence for any of the assertions you've made about it. Before you reach for your Bible, remember that the Bible was written by humans whose scientific knowledge would be dwarfed by the average middle schooler. Unless you have some evidence to support the assertion that they would be able to know things from outside space-time, their writings are essentially useless in proving anything (especially since they're technically the claim, and you can't use a claim to prove itself because that's circular).
Verbatim from the mouth of Jesus (retranslated from a retranslation of a copy of a copy):
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you too will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. How can you see your brother's head up his ass when your own vision is darkened by your head being even further up your ass? How can you say to your brother, 'Get your head out of your ass,' when all the time your head is up your own ass? You hypocrite! First take your head out of your own ass, and then you will see clearly who has his head up his ass and who doesn't." Matthew 7:1-5 (also Luke 6: 41-42)
Also, I has a website: www.RedbeardThePink.com
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RE: Proving God in 20 statements
April 1, 2016 at 6:31 pm
(April 1, 2016 at 5:03 pm)robvalue Wrote: Ah, it probably isn't obvious to newcomers.
I am God. Proof has already been given, as other members can attest to. I see this argument does prove my existence, but it's rather redundant since I'm here talking to you.
Is there any questions you have for me?
You seem staggeringly uninterested in this revelation.
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RE: Proving God in 20 statements
April 1, 2016 at 6:37 pm
(April 1, 2016 at 5:38 pm)smfortune Wrote: (April 1, 2016 at 5:36 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: This is outside my knowledge base but here:
http://skepticsplay.blogspot.com/2009/04...ument.html
The rest of you should find it's website. It takes a lot of liberties.
This is Gödel's ontological argument. I do not present Gödel's ontological argument (Gödel was a theist himself); I have no comment on that. I present an argument invoking Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem.
OK. Then I'll go with the positions stated here.
http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2010/05...dont-know/
BTW, no amount of arguing, with math or anything else, can ever make a fantasy real.
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem.
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