Shia & Sunna: Why I don't believe

[Goosebump]

Is there a point to this thread, having actually wasted my life reading it, other then a bizarre and misplaced want for "kudos" in not subscribing to the predominates but finding something in the nuance of the nonsense and still believing? Is that about the summary of this thing?

I feel I'm doing this by even responding:



Why should I take care of your shit?

[WinterHold]

Aisha, the mother of all Muslims,

I don't get that Muhammad had lots of wives. But Aisha is somehow more special than the others? I think it's not hard to imagine there are "Quranists" out there who think Ali was nice.

Uthman/Othman was a noob. He took away people's Qurans which I think was really selfish a shortsighted. Now we can't see textual variations in the Quran. Controlled transmission, to me, suggests there was something to hide.

But those Twelvers I think you say they will dig up the graves of certain people when the final Imam arrives. This Mehdi guy I think it was. Sounds crazy.

Wahaabi/Salafis emphasize the Salaf (supposedly), like getting rid of Bidah, yet they memorize Hadith. There were no Hadith, as we know them today, the time of the Salafi, right? The Hadith were written and organized hundreds of years after Muhammad.  If I were to ask them about this, about why the the Hadith are bad, they will tell me all about Isnad Chains. "Oh yes, the the Hadith are great!" they say. But then every ten year old Salafi/Wahaabi thinks themselves a scholar so they go out an harass people in the World Wide Web and with their "Dawah Tables". Children are not scholars?

It's amazing to me that people say "My religious is not homogeneous" and then they come out with a seemingly never ending list of people who can't be part of their religion because of reason X or reason Y. Hypocritical I think.

I've heard some people say increased "Quranism" is a sign of the "end times". Or just call them "liberal elites". Are you a liberal elite Atlas (2:20 in the video)? That flag of al-Saud's henchmen in Iraq and Syria in the corner of the video..WTF...I'm probably on a terrorist watch list now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8s-DiRCa6u8

But, back to being serious, I think Shabir Ali has a much better video on "Quranism" for those interested (I don't like Shabir Ali but his video is more coherent). Apparently we need a "balanced approach to Hadith". But I think most people don't have the time to analyze each and every Hadith, even within just Bukhari alone, lets say, so it's unrealistic to expect the average person to go through all of the collections and all of the Hadith and decide for themselves. So they have to rely on others. But you won't know whose opinions to rely on unless you've done your own research, so you could be easily led astray (especially if you're illiterate, as many people in Africa and Asia are).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBiqdvKlRAw

Aisha isn't special, there is a verse though describing "all" the wives of being the mothers of Muslims:

Sura 33
( 6 )   The Prophet is more worthy of the believers than themselves, and his wives are [in the position of] their mothers. And those of [blood] relationship are more entitled [to inheritance] in the decree of Allah than the [other] believers and the emigrants, except that you may do to your close associates a kindness [through bequest]. That was in the Book inscribed.

You can guess that when a verse like this, meets the Shia hadiths accusing Aisha of being a whore, or meets Ali's story of meeting Aisha in battle, well...to a Quranist it won't be cool indeed. Especially when the other part considers you a "whore lover" who deserves to die for "infidelity". 

Yes, Ottoman did what is worse than that: he was weak, allowed his family and tribe to take lands for free,until the Ummayads became a force that is able to even invade Europe itself -Spain is an example-, let alone the Quran incident.

Hadiths started to be collected later, 200 years after the prophet's death, perhaps? that was when "Bukhari" wrote his book, around that time.
Mehdi led to disasters, on the Sunni side, even in modern times. Look here, I think you'll be very interested in this, MNMP:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Mosque_seizure

You can see the madness. 
In the Shia teachings though, he would dig the bodies of Omar and Abu Bakr and trial them one last time.

But Wahhabies preceded the Shia with the massacring of hundreds for the sake of this mythological figure.
Ironically, the Sauds received what they sowed in that grand mosque incident; TBH.

Yes, Hadiths were never collected in the past, some even said that the Prophet porhibeted people to do so before he died.


About that video, I love how he spreads his logic using the power of "whey protein"..my problem with these folks is one thing: they're so full of themselves. 
What I love about this breed is how they make the Quran make so much sense :

Sura 31
( 21 )   And when it is said to them, "Follow what Allah has revealed," they say, "Rather, we will follow that upon which we found our fathers." Even if Satan was inviting them to the punishment of the Blaze? 

Literally, if you told this fella to follow what "God revealed", he'll tell you no I follow what my forefathers -Bukhari & the like- had wrote..

Ah..
You again, bring me a video that would contribute to my early death with a brain damage -_-..

The second video though was great. I ask you MNMP to wait for me to make my mind about a proper response, too many good points in the video.

[WinterHold]

so Atlas, lemme get this straight... you don't like shia and you don't like sunni, so you made up your own religion based on Islam and called it Islam ? Brilliant..

Why don't you just admit that it's an awful religion ? you're just like moderate muslims, not being muslims, but calling themselves mulsims...

lol

Mister Agenda

You can consider such sub branches grouped under the umbrella of either Sunna or Shia sources.
Disproving the source, would disprove all the sub branches.

Goosebump

Come on goose ! I thought you were ...mmm...IDK.
It's an Islamic section, so I don't what you would expect something else..

Why are you obsessed with human feces? It looks like you want kudos too, so...here ya go.

[Mystic]

Bani-Israel were preferred over the worlds through God's grace but were not actually chosen like Prophets are. They were selected but not chosen. Chosen (astafa) implies they are special servants of God that God deemed them way higher and way better and chose them in that sense for roles.

Rather they were tried with respect to God's chosen ones, and through disobeying them, they merited God's punishment.

Bani-Israel weren't simply given a book and left to themselves. Allah [swt] appointed leaders who guide by his command among them.

[Mystic]

As for brothers of Yusuf, they weren't chosen like Yusuf was.

But what does Quran say about the family of Nuh. It says "He is not of your family, verily his conduct is other then righteous". So whoever has conduct other then righteous cannot be included in the family of Nuh for example. It excludes them all.

The true family of Prophets consists of chosen ones:

"Indeed God chose Adam and Nuh and the family of Abraham and the family of Imran above the worlds.
Offspring some it from some, indeed God is the Hearing, the Knowing"

[ReptilianPeon]

Aisha isn't special, there is a verse though describing "all" the wives of being the mothers of Muslims:

Even Eve was the first woman? Literally, if the Quran considers her a literal person (unlike, apparently, the Hebrew of Genesis), she would be the "mother of all believers"? Wahaabi-Salafi are determined to convince Christians (and Jews) that everyone in the Bible followed exactly what Muhammad taught - even when what they taught contradicts what Wahaabi-Safali believe.

Jew drink alcohol - Noah was a alcoholic according the Bible. Christians believe Jesus turned water into alcohol. You provided your evidences that many caliphs drunk alcohol and clarified the Quran Iyah. But all of this doesn't matter to Wahaabi-Salafi - the are at war with reality, and Tasbih, shutting down conversations which they don't like and bombs seem to be their only weapons (and Saudi is a prime example of this). They want to ignore those parts of the Bible and simply tell people that Jesus prays like them according to the Bible and anything else convenient to them.

I knew about the Grand Mosque Seizure. Probably the same people that killed King Fasiel because they didn't want Saudi to have its own television station. Apparently TV was too "Western" for some Wahaabi-Salafi scholars. Yet these are the same people who, today, flood YouTube with garbage to try and convince us Kuffar (and I include you because you do many supposedly Haram things). Funny how things turn out. Interpretation is driven by desire: The more their message spreads, the more money they get from donations, but they are, of course, all subsidized by Saudi. So now we have a breed of Western born so-called "scholars" like the comedic man in the first video.

About that video, I love how he spreads his logic using the power of "whey protein"..my problem with these folks is one thing: they're so full of themselves. 
What I love about this breed is how they make the Quran make so much sense :

Ah..
You again, bring me a video that would contribute to my early death with a brain damage -_-..

Probably the kind of man who supports that Saudi Shekyh that recently said it's Halal to each your wife if you're starving. You can look it up. Whether or not it's actually true that he said that I don't know; you know the media. These Western coverts to Wahaabi/Salafi doctrine they care more about money than truth. They go around the world giving speeches where they pretend to educate people. And those they have on puppet strings are too busy with Tasbih (like you say, Allah the ATM) to care that their giving their money to scammers.

The second video though was great. I ask you MNMP to wait for me to make my mind about a proper response, too many good points in the video.

Shabir Ali can do that. He's one of the better Da'is (not sure if he's been brainwashed by Saudi like the others, but at least he appears somewhat intelligent). The fact that he actually allows women to show their faces on camera is clearly a sign that he's a lot more sane than many of the others.

What I took away from Shabir's video is: Yes, the Hadith are confusing, but don't worry. Even though people can't agree on which Hadith and real and which are fake, you can buy lots of big and expensive books which will help you to make your mind up. It's up to you to go through each and every Hadith instead of throwing them all out. And don't just limit yourself to the standard "collections" of Hadith. Some outside of the standard collection may be good Hadith too. It doesn't matter that the (singe transmission ones at least) Hadith are like a game of Chinese Whispers, so, go on, delve right

And notice how they said that they were going to discuss "the nature of Satan" but the never did. That was silly. Those are the sorts of blunders I expect from somebody like DawahMan.

[Mystic]

From Imam Retha (the 8th Imam): “The Honorable the Exalted God gave distinction to the (prophetic) household over other people in the Wise Book.” Al-Ma’mun asked him (s), “Where is that in God’s Book?” Al-Reza (s) told him, “Indeed the Honorable the Exalted God says, ‘Allah did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of 'Imran above all people. Offspring, one of the other: And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.’ In another place the Honorable the Exalted God says, ‘Or do they envy those people for what God hath given them of his bounty? So then We had already given the family of Abraham the Book and Wisdom, and conferred upon them a great authority.’ He then addressed this effect to the rest of the believers, so he said: O ye who believe Obey God, and obey the Apostle, and those with the Authority from you.’ This means those whom God has given them the Book and the Wisdom for which they are envied. Therefore, what is understood from the Honorable the Exalted God’s words, ‘Or do they envy the people for what God hath given them of his grace? So then We had already given the family of Abraham the Book and Wisdom, and conferred upon them a great authority’ This refers to obeying the Chosen Pure ones.”, so the authority here refers to the obedience owed to them. 

[Mystic]

I just thought of another angle to 3:33. We know Prophets were chosen in all places all over the world. So what makes the offspring of Abraham unique and above the rest of the nations who had Prophets or offspring that had Prophets.

It surely then is referring to the fact, that the family of Abraham refers specifically to chosen ones.

So for example bani-hashim has Mohammad, but another tribe had x Prophet and another tribe had x Prophet...so what makes distinction above the whole world, when practically much of the world tribes had Prophets.

The fact is 3:33 has to be about chosen members who are exalted like Nuh and Adam.

[WinterHold]

Bani-Israel were preferred over the worlds through God's grace but were not actually chosen like Prophets are. They were selected but not chosen. Chosen (astafa) implies they are special servants of God that God deemed them way higher and way better and chose them in that sense for roles.

Rather they were tried with respect to God's chosen ones, and through disobeying them, they merited God's punishment.

Bani-Israel weren't simply given a book and left to themselves. Allah [swt] appointed leaders who guide by his command among them.

No, you're playing the famous sport of "word gymnastic" to justify a false concept.
They were selected, but not chosen? you can't be seriously presenting this as an argument now.. 

Mystic, choose and select are synonyms:

http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/choose

I'm an Arab. No, the word "Istafa اصطفى" does not imply that somebody is a "special servant that is chosen by God", it simply means that a certain person was picked up from within a group and favored to do something specific, in the context of the Quran it is governed by a golden rule: disobey and you're in hell; I mean you just ignored the verse I brought in the previous comment:

Sura 6
( 87 )   And [some] among their fathers and their descendants and their brothers - and We chose them and We guided them to a straight path.
( 88 )   That is the guidance of Allah by which He guides whomever He wills of His servants. But if they had associated others with Allah, then worthless for them would be whatever they were doing.

Not cool..not cool.
I even enlarged it..

As for the children of Israel, you do realize that this verse exists too, right?

Sura 45
( 16 )   And We did certainly give the Children of Israel the Scripture and judgement and prophethood, and We provided them with good things and preferred them over the worlds.

Then, explain to me again what this line means?

MysticKnight said:
Bani-Israel were preferred over the worlds through God's grace but were not actually chosen like Prophets are. They were selected but not chosen. Chosen (astafa) implies they are special servants of God that God deemed them way higher and way better and chose them in that sense for roles.

Not cool..
Compare the verse to the bold sentence in your comment.

I hope you'll come out with a good judgement about the Shia faith.

[Mystic]

Words can be synonymous, but still, have different meaning. Synonyms are not all words with exact same meaning in all places. And in time sometimes words loose their original meaning. But we see in study of Quran, the word astafa is used in 12 verses, 13 times, and it has a special meaning.


If Bani-Israel was chosen, and they had people who disobeyed God and were cursed by God, then why did Quran say:

Peace be upon the servants of God that he has chosen (astafa)...


To you bani-Israel were chosen and not simply selected, but Quran is saying peace is upon all such servants, but then Quran is also saying many of Bani-Israel were cursed for disobeying God and his Messengers.