Shia & Sunna: Why I don't believe

[robvalue]

It was Mystic who brought up the dark forces again, he does that every so often.

[Brian37]

Yeah. He wants us to be confused, or this is the best he can do.

Yea, so that makes humans his lab rats, toys. 

In real life, in the west, if a parent had three kids and allowed them to fight constantly to the point of severe injury or death and Child Protective Services found out, the kids would be taken away and the parent arrested. Yet even liberals of all these three religions cant see or don't want to see the harm religion causes. 

Religion does not create empathy or peace, not in any universal neutral sense. It does locally, but still even then, has the division at best, that all non majorities are pets or house guests who won't be harmed as long as they know their place is behind that majority. But this is what all religions do worldwide, to greater or lesser degrees. 

 All religions point to the ideas of kindness and empathy, but really what humans are doing is using that as excuses to set up social pecking orders. No, it isn't that you can force religion out of existence, but it is way past time humans consider where our behaviors come from as being natural, and not some Marvel Comic battle between a super hero and super villain based on old books.

There is not one religion, not even those of Asia and the Orient, that does not have competing sub sects that have differences of the interpretations of the holy writings or how the umbrella label should progress forward. 

We divide and compete, not because a god exists, or that their is a wise man with all the answers, we do that because that is what evolution in all it's forms does, compete for resources. The good thing about our species is, that when we want to, we can appeal to less tribalism and a more universal understanding that we are the same species.

But right now, currently globally the biggest trouble makers are the big three religions of Abraham, and yes while the east is still stuck far too much in a theocratic past by comparison based on the Hadiths and Quran, it still remains that all three religions claim the same character and all three claim to be daddy's favorite child. Problem is this doesnt stay at a simply debate, it gets to the point of Christians and Jews and Muslims all willing to end the lives of people they have never met and hide behind "self defense". 

The worst part is because of the failure of all three, not as individuals in any, but as a climate, the rest of the world who are not members of any of those, are stuck as hostages on the only home our species has. Nobody is going anywhere, this is the only planet all 7 billion of us have. But unless more humans in all camps face the reality that their is no such thing as a "chosen people", the violence will fester.

[WinterHold]

Yeah... except that's not what it says in Surah 2. You're interpreting it to mean the opposite of what it says.

If God wrote this book, I really shouldn't need any help understanding it.

I really cannot get why the idea of "using the 600 pages in the Quran" to come up with the final conclusion is that hard, I mean it's not fair at all to apply this concept everywhere, but stop at the Quran.

Meaning is, you're so wrong if you claim Sura 2 is the whole Quran, what you did rob is that you took one verse and said that it's enough.

It's like a building, the stones are collected from everywhere, 600 pages are there to study before the slightest conclusion is ever made.

Sura 2 has a concept; all the others Suras has the elaboration.

Brian37

All loving is what the Catholic church lied to you and claimed; there is no "kind loving God" in Islam:

Sura 5
( 18 )   But the Jews and the Christians say, "We are the children of Allah and His beloved." Say, "Then why does He punish you for your sins?" Rather, you are human beings from among those He has created. He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them, and to Him is the [final] destination.


Merciful, not "loving", he's not a father, he's not a woman.
Kind? why would he be? actually, who do we think we are?

Rather, he loves good actions, he hate bad actions, it's up to you. Wanna be loved do good. Wanna be hated do bad. We get to choose between making our lives a tale told by an idiot, or a tale told by a wise smart mind.

Complaining about the Quran not being obvious is not justified, I mean you guys are stopping at Sura 2, and make the final conclusion. I don't know in which law is that valid.

About the west: I love marylin so much:

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He's lost. But he's spot on in so many things.

Aside from that, so we don't get sidetracked, it's lovely to domistically be good to people so they don't revolt, but you export your radiations and poisons to the deserts of Arabia, supporting dictators and filling our gulags with children like me, the kids of war and peace, grow up inside the guts and gores your western jets make of us, piercing through our skin and flesh in the sake of interest and economy.

1 pound of my flesh every second, cut and used to feed the old continent.

Islam is justice. you can't see its effect, because it's not practiced anywhere.

And it's not like we're fighting over interpretation, I never fight for interpretation, go ask Shia and Sunna why they have tendency behead who oppose them, under the excuse of "demon possession".

[robvalue]

I'd say a book is pretty badly written if I have to read all of it before I can understand what the first few pages mean.

[WinterHold]

I'd say a book is pretty badly written if I have to read all of it before I can understand what the first few pages mean.

How so?
The da vinci code is one of the most awesome novels I read in my life. Things always made sense at the end, I stayed clueless for most of the book.

The beginning never makes sense without the end, in so many cases

[robvalue]

Yeah... it was designed that way, to be suspenseful. It's a story. I assume the Quran is meant to be telling you serious things, not deliberately leaving you in the dark for literary effect. That would be very irresponsible considering the gravity of the instructions.

In my opinion, you've gone back and mentally rewritten things to make them add up with other things. But when two parts contradict, you choose the side you like the most. This happens endlessly with the bible. Not quite as much with the Quran, but the contradictions are still there.

[Mystic]

First if one believes in God and Quran, every verse he has to think, Allah [swt] chose these words out of infinite words. But a lot of people instead of looking to see what a verse might be saying, what's it's message, how does it flow with respect to the verses in the Surah, are there similar themes in other Surahs, etc...they just like to belittle it's sanctity and deny it's relevance to us. 

They belittle the words God while claiming they believe in them. 

If we reflect over Quran, everything becomes easy. If we don't reflect, everything it teaches remains ambiguous. It doesn't prove God and his Oneness this way, neither does it prove Prophethood of Mohammad, neither does it prove Wilayah of Ali and his successors this way.

But with reflection the book unravels, and it's wisdom becomes clear. It's intended meaning and light therein shines. 

May God enlighten our hearts and ease our burdens.

[WinterHold]

Yeah... it was designed that way, to be suspenseful. It's a story. I assume the Quran is meant to be telling you serious things, not deliberately leaving you in the dark for literary effect. That would be very irresponsible considering the gravity of the instructions.

In my opinion, you've gone back and mentally rewritten things to make them add up with other things. But when two parts contradict, you choose the side you like the most. This happens endlessly with the bible. Not quite as much with the Quran, but the contradictions are still there.

The Quran is not read based one chronological order; Sura 1 is not the first Sura to be revealed.
Actually to be more precise, verses are revealed in different times. So yeah, I would say it's a pretty unique book.

But it does foretell some tales that carry valuable information; tales which we can conclude stuff from.
With the Quran, where you start is not important, but when you read you should never neglect the context, you actually stop when the context stop. 

It's easy to read indeed. As for the contradictions, I really need a full list of them; because I frankly saw none, though I'm really interested to.


MysticKnight

I'm sorry Mystic -no actually I'm not- but you keep on practicing gymnastics around arguments, I mean this is becoming useless because it looks like I'm wasting time and comments on debating a person who never responds to what I "ACTUALLY WRITE".

I don't care about your scholars. Discuss the Quran, using the Quran, prove or disprove using it & only it, otherwise you have nothing. Sorry. Even atheists in this debate, are keeping Hadiths outside, because I:

1-Don't believe in them and frankly don't trust you or them
2-Ali and his clan mean nothing to me as a Muslim since they're not even mentioned in the Quran 
3-My demons are on holiday currently; Juliana Homicide didn't trigger them yet (2:29)





I'm sorry, but I'm immune to missionary work; either sunni or shia.
I'm only up for constructive discussion

[Brian37]

Yeah... except that's not what it says in Surah 2. You're interpreting it to mean the opposite of what it says.

If God wrote this book, I really shouldn't need any help understanding it.

I really cannot get why the idea of "using the 600 pages in the Quran" to come up with the final conclusion is that hard, I mean it's not fair at all to apply this concept everywhere, but stop at the Quran.

Meaning is, you're so wrong if you claim Sura 2 is the whole Quran, what you did rob is that you took one verse and said that it's enough.

It's like a building, the stones are collected from everywhere, 600 pages are there to study before the slightest conclusion is ever made.

Sura 2 has a concept; all the others Suras has the elaboration.

Brian37

All loving is what the Catholic church lied to you and claimed; there is no "kind loving God" in Islam:

Sura 5
( 18 )   But the Jews and the Christians say, "We are the children of Allah and His beloved." Say, "Then why does He punish you for your sins?" Rather, you are human beings from among those He has created. He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them, and to Him is the [final] destination.


Merciful, not "loving", he's not a father, he's not a woman.
Kind? why would he be? actually, who do we think we are?

Rather, he loves good actions, he hate bad actions, it's up to you. Wanna be loved do good. Wanna be hated do bad. We get to choose between making our lives a tale told by an idiot, or a tale told by a wise smart mind.

Complaining about the Quran not being obvious is not justified, I mean you guys are stopping at Sura 2, and make the final conclusion. I don't know in which law is that valid.

About the west: I love marylin so much:

---

---

He's lost. But he's spot on in so many things.

Aside from that, so we don't get sidetracked, it's lovely to domistically be good to people so they don't revolt, but you export your radiations and poisons to the deserts of Arabia, supporting dictators and filling our gulags with children like me, the kids of war and peace, grow up inside the guts and gores your western jets make of us, piercing through our skin and flesh in the sake of interest and economy.

1 pound of my flesh every second, cut and used to feed the old continent.

Islam is justice. you can't see its effect, because it's not practiced anywhere.

And it's not like we're fighting over interpretation, I never fight for interpretation, go ask Shia and Sunna why they have tendency behead who oppose them, under the excuse of "demon possession".

Stop trying to make apologies for your religion. Seriously, this is NOT about you as an individual, this is about the entire concept all three try to sell and all three point to their respective books to justify peace or violence. It isn't personal. I have a problem with all three, but even the religions of Asia and the Orient don't get a pass from me either as far as logic. 

Humans form groups and unfortunately in that process we base those things around our labels and that in turn, even within the same labels, causes divisions. 

Everyone has their concept of justice, Islam doesn't own a patent on it. I can see the affects on religious tribalism and that is not "justice" in the slightest. You do it, Jews do it Christians do it, every religion does it. And that says to me our ability to be cruel or compassionate is in our species, not the labels we hold.

[robvalue]

What is this now? The Quran isn't even presented in the right order?

I give up God is the worst author ever.