Did Jesus exist at all?

[Redbeard The Pink]

In my review, there's not enough evidence to be particularly certain which answer is most likely

Then it is time to undertake the What Is More Likely test.

Ask yourself, is it more likely that: 

A-

 

or

B-

While that is hilarious, the 3 answers I'm talking about are these:

1. Jesus might have been based on one real, mundane human.

2. Jesus might have been based on several mundane individuals.

3. Jesus might have been based on a pre-existing fictional god-character.


I know the magic answer isn't likely. I didn't think that was really what we were arguing over.

[robvalue]

There's also the possibility that the gospel authors made Jesus up. And there's the further possibility that they never intended him to be considered a real character at all.

Obviously, even if they did make him up, they incorporated a lot of details that they stole from previous mythologies.

[Aractus]

Robv- that isn't how mythology works.

[The Grand Nudger]

Not this again.  Yes, it is how mythology works.  Many times, over and over, collectively, we arrive at narratives not -at all- like news reports.  Some stories persist, many or even most do not.  Those surviving narratives are what we, say a thousand or so years later, might call a mythology (or more generously, in context - and incredibly on point, as the other representative genre of literature which the story -might- be able to qualify as; a collection of legends).  

The details and the plot do not simply manifested themselves upon thought, word, or page.

[Minimalist]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euhemerism...Christians

In his 2011 book, The Christ-Myth Theory and Its Problems, former Baptist pastor and double PhD in religious studies Robert M. Price supported the Christ myth theory when he wrote "the story of Jesus which we have, in every form, remains a redemption myth constructed along the lines of the universal mythic hero archetype, with no "secular," biographical material left over. When we are done dismantling the records and we begin ghoulishly picking through the scanty remains for clues to an underlying "historical Jesus," like people scavenging gold from the teeth and fingers of the battlefield dead, are we perhaps engaging in Euhemerism?"

So Price, and slightly later Richard Carrier, would buy into your #3.  One group had a hallucination that their boy came back from the dead and concocted a poorly-written biography for him to have been an actual person at a time conveniently outside of the memory of anyone living.  When they attained a measure of political power they denounced all the other groups as heretics and suppressed them.

Remember Price and Carrier when some asshole claims that "real scholars" buy their bullshit.

[Aractus]

Not this again.  Yes, it is how mythology works.  Many times, over and over, collectively, we arrive at narratives not -at all- like news reports.  Some stories persist, many or even most do not.  Those surviving narratives are what we, say a thousand or so years later, might call a mythology (or more generously, in context - and incredibly on point, as the other representative genre of literature which the story -might- be able to qualify as; a collection of legends).  

The details and the plot do not simply manifested themselves upon thought, word, or page.

No but they do get written down. They've been written down in Ancient Egypt, in Rome, in plenty of other ancient places. There are currently millions - not hundreds, not thousands, not tens of thousands - millions of individual Hindu deities with their own individual mythologies. Some of those would be written down as well and held by just single families. My point is that the Pentateuch is a clear-cut example of mythology, you'd be hard-pressed to find a better one. It also formed the basis of a religion, and that's what makes this specific mythology so interesting. Many of the concepts and beliefs written down in the Pentateuch and attributed to the Patriarchs have been directly associated with other beliefs in the region which were held from the 2nd millennia BC. So they didn't "just appear" on the pages of the Pentateuch - that's wrong. They appear several centuries beforehand in several different pre-existing cultures, which later assimilated their beliefs into what would have been the original version of the Pentateuch. The version we have now is greatly expanded upon using direct Judaic mythology - i.e. it's a feedback loop that fed into itself. I've pointed this out several times - nothing "just appears" from nowhere in the Pentateuch, much of it can and has been tracked. This doesn't mean that other books don't have a clear political agenda, just that the Pentateuch is not the production of vested interests and fiction writers.

[Ravenshire]

If you'd seen what I've seen you'd be wondering what sort of evil being, assuming one existed, would inflict such horrors on people, especially innocent children.

Of course, you'd justify it by claiming it's our own fault: "free will" and all that crap, but, if Mental Gymnastics was an Olympic event, the apologists would win a platinum medal.

 Sin is responsible for the down fall of the creation and man is responsible for sin, so yes, it's our fault.

GC

Yep. It's our fault that a perfect being was unable to create perfect creations.

Same shit, different day but he thinks he's gonna get different results.

[Love333]

I noticed a lot of Atheists type talk about "poop" as something being fake. Let me just point out that poop is used as fertilizer to allow plants to grow.

Manure contribute to the fertility of the soil by adding organic matter and nutrients, such as nitrogen, that are trapped by bacteria in the soil. Higher organisms then feed on the fungi and bacteria in a chain of life that comprises the soil food web. It is also a product obtained after decomposition of organic matter like cow dung which replenishes the soil with essential elements and add humus to the soil. In a sense poop is essential to plants and many animals.

I believe Aractus has a lot of accuracy in his beliefs, However -> "They appear several centuries beforehand in several different pre-existing cultures" How could someone in far East Asia believe in a God so similar to one in Egypt? These narratives must have formed from profound insights. I want to point out that the similarities between Jesus & Moses & Thoth & Ishtar can amaze someone when they study the similarities in great detail.

[Ravenshire]

Jesus exists because:

1) It's written down in a book
2) There are obscure references in highly suspicious later documents
3) Anyone who disagrees isn't a real historian
4) We shouldn't expect there to be any proper evidence
5) Other historical figures exist

Well, shit. Now you've done it Rob. I'm convinced.

So, which one of the 40,000+ sects is the One True Religion so I can give all my shit to their shelter and cut them a check for one tenth of my money?

[Love333]

Jesus exists because:

1) It's written down in a book
2) There are obscure references in highly suspicious later documents
3) Anyone who disagrees isn't a real historian
4) We shouldn't expect there to be any proper evidence
5) Other historical figures exist

Well, shit. Now you've done it Rob. I'm convinced.

So, which one of the 40,000+ sects is the One True Religion so I can give all my shit to their shelter and cut them a check for one tenth of my money?

When you think as if there is "One true Religion" & the rest are wrong you may be limiting yourself. You generally can find the answers by looking at the similarities between the religions.

 If you are going to give to the poor give it to the people that REALLY NEED IT. How could giving to a major corporate founded charity help? The Bible may not be 100% accurate at face value but there is a lot of truth in it. If you see someone really suffering and you know they need money not for drugs or partying but because they come from nothing and are starving - you give it to them. Imagine if everyone on Earth did these good deeds?