Problems understanding naturalistically the beginning of the universe

[LadyForCamus]

Wry,

Are you trying to convince us that you are right?  Honestly, why are you here?  Please understand that you will likely never persuade an atheist that God exists by using the bible.  So...what is your angle here?

I often wonder why they come here to debate. I mean, as you well know I'm up for a good debate, but why that?

You only ever see them on threads attacking science [Edit to Add: which I find odd, since most of the scientists I've known in my career and personal life have been Christians], telling us false information about ourselves (because their pastors and religious-book writers lied to them, I think, and not because they see themselves as lying), and making terrible and illogical claims that they are so certain are sound that they don't even listen to us explaining why they're leaps of (il)logic.

What I never see is Christians who visit the "shit that happened to me because people are bigoted against atheists" threads, or looking at our talk of personal/life problems, or where we talk about our favorite cars (etc.) for social purposes. That tells me they are not interested in us as people, but as objects-- unfortunately, as objects they can misrepresent in their own minds to justify the way they speak to us, most of the time.

I will give credit where it is due; we have a Muslim and a few Christian posters I've seen really treating us like people, wanting to share in our human experience, and willing to see that while freedom from religion is what makes an atheist, our humanity is otherwise the same as theirs.

Yeah, I agree it feels as if they perceive us as objects rather than individuals most of the time. In fact, I'll go a step further and admit that I have become desensitized to their individuality. I suppose it's an unconscious reaction to the robotic and predictable style of interaction they use with us; like computers spitting out a closed set of pre-programmed objections/assertions. When we attempt to actually engage in what they are saying we get, "does not compute." as a response, or no response at all.

The bible argument is particularly disturbing because it feels like it's meant to be a "gotcha" set up by the theist: "so...what you're saying, atheist, is that there is no evidence for God, huh? Well guess what? The BIBLE! Boo yah! Gotcha!" Then the they abandon the thread, and we are left scratching out heads.

Perhaps they sincerely believe that God is going to imbue them with the ability to change our minds via scripture regurgitation. That's the only reason I can think they'd try to use the bible as a persuasive tool.

We do have a few genuine folks from the theistic camp here, yes. . Cathy, for one, and Mystic Night (even though I never have any fucking clue what he's talking about) is a sweet person with an honest (though often not rational) interest in discourse. [emoji12]

[Wryetui]

I assume that this beautiful image should teach me something, but certainly I have a problem grasping its meaning. Tell me, what is the nature of these beautiful pictures?

Wry,

Are you trying to convince us that you are right?  Honestly, why are you here?  Please understand that you will likely never persuade an atheist that God exists by using the bible.  So...what is your angle here?

I would swear if it wouldn't be a sin, but I can tell you the truth that I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. One of my fundamental beliefs is that every human being is able to choice whatever they want and that they are responsible for their choices. Even more, I totally agree with the second article of the Declaration of Human Rights: "Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.", and if you are curious about why I agree with all of this the reason is simple, because God behaves this way! He doesn't force anyone to love Him at all, even Jesus said that: "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.", so please, get me right on this, I am here merely for the purpose of debate end because I am curious about the atheism I once shared, its origins, its effects on the people and its consequences. I don't believe a true christian should convince anyone of anything. By trying to convince people you are sinning, because you are thinking egoistically, you just want the person next to you to have your beliefs because you consider yourself superior to the another one. If anyone is interested in asking me about my faith I will answer gladly and I will always give my opinion on everything based on my faith, but I will never force anyone to believe what I say.

[LadyForCamus]

Wry,

Are you trying to convince us that you are right?  Honestly, why are you here?  Please understand that you will likely never persuade an atheist that God exists by using the bible.  So...what is your angle here?

I would swear if it wouldn't be a sin, but I can tell you the truth that I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. One of my fundamental beliefs is that every human being is able to choice whatever they want and that they are responsible for their choices. Even more, I totally agree with the second article of the Declaration of Human Rights: "Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.", and if you are curious about why I agree with all of this the reason is simple, because God behaves this way! He doesn't force anyone to love Him at all, even Jesus said that: "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.", so please, get me right on this, I am here merely for the purpose of debate end because I am curious about the atheism I once shared, its origins, its effects on the people and its consequences. I don't believe a true christian should convince anyone of anything. By trying to convince people you are sinning, because you are thinking egoistically, you just want the person next to you to have your beliefs because you consider yourself superior to the another one. If anyone is interested in asking me about my faith I will answer gladly and I will always give my opinion on everything based on my faith, but I will never force anyone to believe what I say.

Well, I appreciate what appears to be a genuine response from you, so thank you. Perhaps it would be more productive for everyone involved if you bring up the specific issues and ideas that you're interested in debating. This approach might help us distinguish you from the steady line of trolls that come in and out of here like a revolving door.

If I may say, I think you are operating under the wrong, though seemingly innocent assumption that atheists don't know anything about Christianity. Many of our members have thoroughly studied the bible, and many of us are former Christians ourselves. Myself included! So, don't assume we have tons of questions, and don't assume that the reason we are atheists is because we have knowledge gaps regarding Christianity. Just a few suggestions; you can, of course, take them or leave them. [emoji41]

[Wryetui]

I would swear if it wouldn't be a sin, but I can tell you the truth that I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. One of my fundamental beliefs is that every human being is able to choice whatever they want and that they are responsible for their choices. Even more, I totally agree with the second article of the Declaration of Human Rights: "Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.", and if you are curious about why I agree with all of this the reason is simple, because God behaves this way! He doesn't force anyone to love Him at all, even Jesus said that: "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.", so please, get me right on this, I am here merely for the purpose of debate end because I am curious about the atheism I once shared, its origins, its effects on the people and its consequences. I don't believe a true christian should convince anyone of anything. By trying to convince people you are sinning, because you are thinking egoistically, you just want the person next to you to have your beliefs because you consider yourself superior to the another one. If anyone is interested in asking me about my faith I will answer gladly and I will always give my opinion on everything based on my faith, but I will never force anyone to believe what I say.

Well, I appreciate what appears to be a genuine response from you, so thank you.  Perhaps it would be more productive for everyone involved if you bring up the specific issues and ideas that you're interested in debating.  This approach might help us distinguish you from the steady line of trolls that come in and out of here like a revolving door.  

If I may say, I think you are operating under the wrong, though seemingly innocent assumption that atheists don't know anything about Christianity.  Many of our members have thoroughly studied the bible, and many of us are former Christians ourselves.  Myself included!  So, don't assume we have tons of questions, and don't assume that the reason we are atheists is because we have knowledge gaps regarding Christianity.  Just a few suggestions; you can, of course, take them or leave them.  [emoji41]

Excepting a few of you, I do not doubt the fact that you have read the Bible and that the majority of the people in here did, you can trust me completely about this. The problem is another one, you have to stop believing about me that I am a main "Bible believer" christian that trusts the Bible alone and believes the earth to be 6000 years old. This is NOT Orthodox Christianity at all, I come from a Church that is aproximately 2000 years old, since the time of the Apostles (two Orthodox patriarchates we have today, Jerusalem and Antioch, were founded by the apostle James and by Peter and Paul, respectively, for example). We may be worshipping the same Jesus Christ (even if I doubt it) but our theology is absolutely different in every way possible (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church, for those who want to know more) and trust me when I say that when you talk to me you are not simply talking to another christian that you are used with since I am different enormously different from a protestant and a catholic. I do not blame any of you because the Orthodox Church, even if it has aproximately 350 million members online, is not so well known because of its lack of involvement with the media and the world in general, but still, I believe it would do very well to further discussions to have in mind that both parties should leave prejudices aside.

[ignoramus]

Very well. Good to know...
Dumb question: Is your flavour of skydaddy any more real than any of the others?

[Mudhammam]

Here's a few questions: Do you believe that your God is ontologically and morally perfect? If so, how can he have degraded himself by creating a world such as ours, which is most certainly neither? Further, what benefit could he derive and what lack could he--a perfect being--fulfill, which wasn't already supremely met in his loving relations understood by the mystery of the Trinity? Finally, how do you justify his maintaining the majority of people who have ever lived in a state of eternal torment because they fail to believe the right propositions (allegedly) about certain cruelties inflicted on an obscure first century figure?

[Edwardo Piet]

The universe started via the big bang.

Existence has always existed and must always exist. For existence to ever not exist -- what does that even mean?

[Wryetui]

Here's a few questions: Do you believe that your God is ontologically and morally perfect? If so, how can he have degraded himself by creating a world such as ours, which is most certainly neither? Further, what benefit could he derive and what lack could he--a perfect being--fulfill, which wasn't already supremely met in his loving relations understood by the mystery of the Trinity? Finally, how do you justify his maintaining the majority of people who have ever lived in a state of eternal torment because they fail to believe the right propositions (allegedly) about certain cruelties inflicted on an obscure first century figure?

Yes, I believe that God is perfect (even if the word perfect falls short do describe Him and doesn't comprehend all that God is). You are wrong, he did not degraded Himself by creating a world like yours, this is just absurd. Our world has the potentiality to become perfect by us, by transfiguring it. Our world was perfect but the Ancestral Sin of Adam and Eve brought death and corruption into it, and was ultimately Him who ent His Son so that His divinity can unite to our humanity in His person so we can be divinely transfigured.

I did not understand this part: "Finally, how do you justify his maintaining the majority of people who have ever lived in a state of eternal torment because they fail to believe the right propositions (allegedly) about certain cruelties inflicted on an obscure first century figure?"

[LadyForCamus]

Well, I appreciate what appears to be a genuine response from you, so thank you.  Perhaps it would be more productive for everyone involved if you bring up the specific issues and ideas that you're interested in debating.  This approach might help us distinguish you from the steady line of trolls that come in and out of here like a revolving door.  

If I may say, I think you are operating under the wrong, though seemingly innocent assumption that atheists don't know anything about Christianity.  Many of our members have thoroughly studied the bible, and many of us are former Christians ourselves.  Myself included!  So, don't assume we have tons of questions, and don't assume that the reason we are atheists is because we have knowledge gaps regarding Christianity.  Just a few suggestions; you can, of course, take them or leave them.  [emoji41]

Excepting a few of you, I do not doubt the fact that you have read the Bible and that the majority of the people in here did, you can trust me completely about this. The problem is another one, you have to stop believing about me that I am a main "Bible believer" christian that trusts the Bible alone and believes the earth to be 6000 years old. This is NOT Orthodox Christianity at all, I come from a Church that is aproximately 2000 years old, since the time of the Apostles (two Orthodox patriarchates we have today, Jerusalem and Antioch, were founded by the apostle James and by Peter and Paul, respectively, for example). We may be worshipping the same Jesus Christ (even if I doubt it) but our theology is absolutely different in every way possible (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church, for those who want to know more) and trust me when I say that when you talk to me you are not simply talking to another christian that you are used with since I am different enormously different from a protestant and a catholic. I do not blame any of you because the Orthodox Church, even if it has aproximately 350 million members online, is not so well known because of its lack of involvement with the media and the world in general, but still, I believe it would do very well to further discussions to have in mind that both parties should leave prejudices aside.

No prejudice here. I appreciate the information in regards to your specific denomination. It's a fact however, that all sects of Christianity, (and all religions in general) lack sufficient evidence to support the truthfulness of their claims. Hence the main reason I am an Atheist, in case you were wondering that is...

[drfuzzy]

---

Well, I appreciate what appears to be a genuine response from you, so thank you.  Perhaps it would be more productive for everyone involved if you bring up the specific issues and ideas that you're interested in debating.  This approach might help us distinguish you from the steady line of trolls that come in and out of here like a revolving door.  

If I may say, I think you are operating under the wrong, though seemingly innocent assumption that atheists don't know anything about Christianity.  Many of our members have thoroughly studied the bible, and many of us are former Christians ourselves.  Myself included!  So, don't assume we have tons of questions, and don't assume that the reason we are atheists is because we have knowledge gaps regarding Christianity.  Just a few suggestions; you can, of course, take them or leave them.  [emoji41]

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Excepting a few of you, I do not doubt the fact that you have read the Bible and that the majority of the people in here did, you can trust me completely about this. The problem is another one, you have to stop believing about me that I am a main "Bible believer" christian that trusts the Bible alone and believes the earth to be 6000 years old. This is NOT Orthodox Christianity at all, I come from a Church that is aproximately 2000 years old, since the time of the Apostles (two Orthodox patriarchates we have today, Jerusalem and Antioch, were founded by the apostle James and by Peter and Paul, respectively, for example). We may be worshipping the same Jesus Christ (even if I doubt it) but our theology is absolutely different in every way possible (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church, for those who want to know more) and trust me when I say that when you talk to me you are not simply talking to another christian that you are used with since I am different enormously different from a protestant and a catholic.

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I do not blame any of you because the Orthodox Church, even if it has aproximately 350 million members online, is not so well known because of its lack of involvement with the media and the world in general, but still, I believe it would do very well to further discussions to have in mind that both parties should leave prejudices aside.

1)  350 million members.  So, is it your position that the other 7 billion, 650 million people on this planet who are not Orthodox have it wrong?

2)  In this case, for both parties to leave prejudices aside, you would have to be able to at least consider the possibility that god does not exist.  Atheists have studied scripture (although without the writings of the Orthodox church fathers) and most have come from a place where we believed that god existed.  That belief died.  I no longer believe unsupported claims. Scientific evidence would change my mind.
     So putting prejudices aside is pretty much impossible, here.  Because you're not going to stop saying "But I know that GOD!!!!" and we're not going to stop saying "prove it".   And you'll wave your 1700 year-old preachers and books in our face, and we'll say "that's not evidence".   Now, if you manage to come up with something more interesting - - - that would be good for a change.