Yes. Just like there's "something about" the patter of a conman right before he rips you off.

Or "something about" the guy who sticks a gun in your face and mugs you.

Or someone who threatens you with eternal torture, for the crime of being born, if you don't do what they say. Fucking disgusting.

(May 6, 2016 at 1:15 pm)robvalue Wrote: Yes. Just like there's "something about" the patter of a conman right before he rips you off.

Or "something about" the guy who sticks a gun in your face and mugs you.

Or someone who threatens you with eternal torture, for the crime of being born, if you don't do what they say. Fucking disgusting.

Jesus: Open the fucking door
Person: W..why 
Jesus: Just let me in so i can protect you 
Person: From who?
Jesus: Me mother fucker or your ass will burn in hell

christianity in a nutshell get protection from a "all loving" bully so you can get into heaven 
and turned into a sociopath.

(May 6, 2016 at 12:35 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(May 6, 2016 at 11:59 am)Aroura Wrote: Well, a lot of people around the world who became Christians as adults did so because they were hungry, and a missionary offered them food in exchange for going to mass and at least pretending to convert.  Then, in their desperation for survival and food, they allowed their children to become indoctrinated into Christianity instead of their own cultural religion.  Like, whole continents of Christians came to it this way.  Congratz!

Is that so? There are very few foreign missionaries in China. Why is Christianity growing so fast there? Additionally, Do you think the 15% of Christians who became Christians as adults in the US did so because someone fed them?

Christianity in China did not just now begin.  It began with rice Christians over a century ago.

As to why Christianity is growing there now, it has a lot to do with the people there adopting what they perceive to be "Western Values" in an attempt to be like us.  At the same time, it is mostly the uneducated rural peoples that are adopting Christianity, far more than the educated of their country.  So, why? because it offers them the same lies it offers you.  Life is unfair, but after you die, the magic man in the sky will even the score. Life really is difficult, it's not exactly a difficult lie to sell.

I think the majority of the American adults who become Christians do so, again, because they are seeking comfort in an unfair world.  It's such an easy lie to sell a person who just lost a child, or suffers from addiction issues.
A lot of them come to it after going through substance abuse programs, which offer their own unfair form of adult indoctrination to the emotionally frail and needy people.  It's little short of emotional blackmail.  But Christians are great at making those kind of conversions and then praising Jesus for their growing numbers (even though, worldwide, they are actually shrinking).

How do you account for the 20% or so of Americans who have left Christianity in America int he last few decades, and the even larger percentage doing so in the rest of the western world?

(May 6, 2016 at 12:25 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(May 6, 2016 at 11:40 am)Mister Agenda Wrote:

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15% of American Christians becoming so as adults in a country that's 70% Christian doesn't seem that mysterious to me. It's still the religion to which they have the most exposure.

Third World countries are particularly vulnerable to missionary conversion. The Mormons and Muslims have also had great success in Africa. Africa is about 53% Muslim, it was estimate in 2002 that they were about 45% of the population. What is missionary success supposed to prove, again?

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I am not trying to prove anything. I am defending the OP observation that adult (I am now clarifying) conversion to Christianity is based on what I wrote about Jesus and not 1) biological and social evolution and 2) cultural influence.

Missionary conversion success illustrates that there must be something about the message that resonates with the person rather than 1) and 2) above.

Well, here is a 2015 Pew study about religions in America - Pew Studies are pretty dependable.  http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanin...study.html



Evangelical numbers have held pretty steady in America, and Evangelicals are the only groups that have "gained more than they have lost".  
"Over the past seven years, evangelicals lost almost 8.5 percent of adherents and gained almost 10 percent for a net gain of 1.5 percent since 2007."

Of course, this doesn't talk about WHY adults would join a church.  It would be easy to propose that the "feel-good, warm and fuzzy, god will take care of you and bless you" messages coming from the Joel Osteens' and Megachurches might be appealing to some.  
    I don't see how you can dismiss "1) biological and social evolution and 2) cultural influence."  I have friends who adore their "Megachurch family" and all of the social activities it provides.  They never mention Jesus.  I could name 3 that have told me that they believe the Bible is a bunch of motivational fables.
    I'm sure there are some adults who hear the story of Jesus dying for their sins, don't question it, and fall down sobbing on the altar.  I can't figure out why they would, but there are all types of people in the world.

And that "missionary success" bit has a lot more to do with feeding starving people while forcing them to listen to fairy tales, and then the children start believing those fairy tales - that's how it works.  Again, economic hardship, lack of education, and doing whatever it takes to survive.  And sure, some will grab onto that promise of heaven - the ultimate con.

Of course people are primarily religious because it's an emotional crutch rather than due to an interest in the truth or even as a concern for intellectual pursuits. And they fail to recognize that questions of morality and meaning are better approached through philosophy instead of the priesthood, which tends to focus on the few instances when "divines" said something awe-inspiring and true rather than the overwhelming examples of division, egotism, theological hatreds, and falsehoods, which tend to be indistinguishable from the utterly delusional.

SteveII Wrote:

Mister Agenda Wrote:15% of American Christians becoming so as adults in a country that's 70% Christian doesn't seem that mysterious to me. It's still the religion to which they have the most exposure.

Third World countries are particularly vulnerable to missionary conversion. The Mormons and Muslims have also had great success in Africa. Africa is about 53% Muslim, it was estimate in 2002 that they were about 45% of the population. What is missionary success supposed to prove, again?

I am not trying to prove anything. I am defending the OP observation that adult (I am now clarifying) conversion to Christianity is based on what I wrote about Jesus and not 1) biological and social evolution and 2) cultural influence.

Missionary conversion success illustrates that there must be something about the message that resonates with the person rather than 1) and 2) above.

So what is adult conversion to Islam based on, with 2) as the given?

It's clearly not the message when it doesn't seem to matter what the message is. It's the help. Come for the food and medicine, stay for the religion.

SteveII Wrote:

Time Traveler Wrote:It works hand-in-glove with your original argument from "appeal" which I addressed earlier. On what grounds would you exclude the appealing draw of security, belonging and community for reasons some become or remain Christian?

I'm sure that is part of the appeal. However there are other ways (including other religions) to get these things from. So why does Christianity seem to resonate well with people (judging by its continuous past and projected numerical growth)? I maintain it is the message I outlined in the OP.

I maintain that it is the proselytization, which also neatly accounts for why Islam is growing (and projected to grow) even faster. If it was the message, other messages wouldn't do as well given similar effort.

Say you're an adult American who converts to Christianity. What were you before you converted? Did you already believe in God and Christianity but were unaffiliated or not yet 'born again' or not yet a member of a church?

I think a lot of 'non-Christian' Americans who 'convert' to Christianity as adults were already Christian in their beliefs. It just wasn't official yet. I wouldn't make much of adults converting to a religion without knowing what they're converting FROM.

(May 6, 2016 at 1:43 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: Well, here is a 2015 Pew study about religions in America - Pew Studies are pretty dependable.  http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanin...study.html



Evangelical numbers have held pretty steady in America, and Evangelicals are the only groups that have "gained more than they have lost".  
"Over the past seven years, evangelicals lost almost 8.5 percent of adherents and gained almost 10 percent for a net gain of 1.5 percent since 2007."

Of course, this doesn't talk about WHY adults would join a church.  It would be easy to propose that the "feel-good, warm and fuzzy, god will take care of you and bless you" messages coming from the Joel Osteens' and Megachurches might be appealing to some.  
    I don't see how you can dismiss "1) biological and social evolution and 2) cultural influence."  I have friends who adore their "Megachurch family" and all of the social activities it provides.  They never mention Jesus.  I could name 3 that have told me that they believe the Bible is a bunch of motivational fables.
    I'm sure there are some adults who hear the story of Jesus dying for their sins, don't question it, and fall down sobbing on the altar.  I can't figure out why they would, but there are all types of people in the world.

And that "missionary success" bit has a lot more to do with feeding starving people while forcing them to listen to fairy tales, and then the children start believing those fairy tales - that's how it works.  Again, economic hardship, lack of education, and doing whatever it takes to survive.  And sure, some will grab onto that promise of heaven - the ultimate con.

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I'm curious about your friends. Did they grow up in the church or become Christians as adults? 

My point in response to your social reasons, is why evangelical churches? There are plenty of other churches who do not emphasis Jesus and thousands of organizations that could provide social interaction. As you put it, this choice comes with fables and fairy tales and someone else characterized it as a bunch of baggage. 

Regarding missionaries, I'm sure what you described happens. But I think one would have to have more warrant than it seems you do to make a sweeping generalization like. I have been to India on a missions trip. The people we encountered and the local organization was not centered around feeding the hungry. It was centered around village churches with native pastors and a training school that could not keep up with teaching new pastors.

(May 6, 2016 at 2:06 pm)Mudhammam Wrote: Of course people are primarily religious because it's an emotional crutch rather than due to an interest in the truth or even as a concern for intellectual pursuits. And they fail to recognize that questions of morality and meaning are better approached through philosophy instead of the priesthood, which tends to focus on the few instances when "divines" said something awe-inspiring and true rather than the overwhelming examples of division, egotism, theological hatreds, and falsehoods, which tend to be indistinguishable from the utterly delusional.

So your answer is that more and more people every year, for 2000 years, are either 1) not concerned about the truth, 2) deceived and fail to detect the deception. 

Your statement that Christianity contains "overwhelming examples of division, egotism, theological hatreds, and falsehoods, which tend to be indistinguishable from the utterly delusional" does not line up with the teachings of the NT (and therefore not Christian). So, in fact you are talking about individuals who exhibit these qualities who are not following what it means to be a Christian. An important distinction. 

In general, you are ascribing motives and reasons for people's beliefs when in reality, you do not and cannot know.