Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
It has come up in another thread that natural theology (philosophical arguments) are not the reason once becomes a Christian. Natural theology should be properly understood as support for the direct revelation and personal revelation from God (the Bible and personal relationship respectively).
I believe, especially for an adult not raised in a Christian home, it is the appeal of Jesus as a person coupled with his teachings that draws people. Why do these things resonate with a large number of people?
It is obvious that we are somehow wired to believe in God/higher power/supernatural/purpose/destiny etc. Of course you will say this is a product of our evolution. There are several theories centered around the adaptive values of religion (social solidarity for one). However, these theories presuppose naturalism. So the result of this reasoning is that if God did exist or did not exist, we would still be wired to believe God exists.
I think another reason this resonates with people is Jesus' main message that forgiveness, personal peace, a relationship with God, and eteral life is possible.
a. there are a lot of people, who have had tough experiences that find the forgiveness and internal peace very appealing.
b. when you meet someone who has been a Christian a long time and exemplifies Jesus' teachings and shares how God has been a constant comfort and support to them in their daily lives, that is very appealing as well.
c. eternal life, how can you beat that? This component also helps you make sense/cope of the shortness of life, tragedies, and pain endured while we are here.
Another appealing quality of Christianity is having the question of purpose and place in the universe answered.
a. with atheism, at best, you are a happy accident with no overall purpose that will very shortly die and cease to exist.
b. contrast that with the purpose of man is to "Glorify God and enjoy him forever". We were created for a reason and daily life has purpose and you really want others to know what you have found.
In addition, Jesus modeled his teachings of love, compassion, and forgiveness for your fellow man and in doing so set an example that, if aspired to, would result in a very fulfilling life. Perhaps you are not old enough, but once you contemplate the brevity of life, finding fulfillment becames important.
While I know the one-liners will start flying in a moment, please contemplate the point I made at the beginning: It is not the KCA, or where did life come from, or arguments about origins of morality that converts people to Christianity, it is Jesus and his message that does that and I thought it important to make that clear.
A good question. I think that there are a number of different reasons. It also may be difficult to answer, as I see a difference, in what first pointed one towards Christianity, and why they became a Christian as more of process. Some are Christians, because their parents where Christians, for some it is a warm fuzzy feeling, for some it is because of evidence, and some through personal experience. Some come to Christianity later in life, through evidence. For Blaise Pascal and John Newton and from what I hear a growing number in Muslim countries it is because of a vision. For myself, it was largely the history, that the faith was built upon, and referencing back to that history.
I do think that you may be under estimating apologetics however. A good number of people come to God through reason. J. Warner Wallace recently posted on this. Both himself and the interviewer (Abdu Murray) both became Christians because of evidence. http://coldcasechristianity.com/2016/i-c...ologetics/ I think you would probably like Wallaces books. He says a lot about his coming to be a Christian from what he describes as a aggressive atheists, and his approach and experience as an investigative detective.
I'm glad you asked the question. I'm finding the responses both interesting and informative.
May 7, 2016 at 7:28 pm (This post was last modified: May 7, 2016 at 7:50 pm by TheRocketSurgeon.)
(May 7, 2016 at 1:37 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:
(May 5, 2016 at 6:05 pm)SteveII Wrote:
It has come up in another thread that natural theology (philosophical arguments) are not the reason once becomes a Christian. Natural theology should be properly understood as support for the direct revelation and personal revelation from God (the Bible and personal relationship respectively).
I believe, especially for an adult not raised in a Christian home, it is the appeal of Jesus as a person coupled with his teachings that draws people. Why do these things resonate with a large number of people?
It is obvious that we are somehow wired to believe in God/higher power/supernatural/purpose/destiny etc. Of course you will say this is a product of our evolution. There are several theories centered around the adaptive values of religion (social solidarity for one). However, these theories presuppose naturalism. So the result of this reasoning is that if God did exist or did not exist, we would still be wired to believe God exists.
I think another reason this resonates with people is Jesus' main message that forgiveness, personal peace, a relationship with God, and eteral life is possible.
a. there are a lot of people, who have had tough experiences that find the forgiveness and internal peace very appealing.
b. when you meet someone who has been a Christian a long time and exemplifies Jesus' teachings and shares how God has been a constant comfort and support to them in their daily lives, that is very appealing as well.
c. eternal life, how can you beat that? This component also helps you make sense/cope of the shortness of life, tragedies, and pain endured while we are here.
Another appealing quality of Christianity is having the question of purpose and place in the universe answered.
a. with atheism, at best, you are a happy accident with no overall purpose that will very shortly die and cease to exist.
b. contrast that with the purpose of man is to "Glorify God and enjoy him forever". We were created for a reason and daily life has purpose and you really want others to know what you have found.
In addition, Jesus modeled his teachings of love, compassion, and forgiveness for your fellow man and in doing so set an example that, if aspired to, would result in a very fulfilling life. Perhaps you are not old enough, but once you contemplate the brevity of life, finding fulfillment becames important.
While I know the one-liners will start flying in a moment, please contemplate the point I made at the beginning: It is not the KCA, or where did life come from, or arguments about origins of morality that converts people to Christianity, it is Jesus and his message that does that and I thought it important to make that clear.
A good question. I think that there are a number of different reasons. It also may be difficult to answer, as I see a difference, in what first pointed one towards Christianity, and why they became a Christian as more of process. Some are Christians, because their parents where Christians, for some it is a warm fuzzy feeling, for some it is because of evidence, and some through personal experience. Some come to Christianity later in life, through evidence. For Blaise Pascal and John Newton and from what I hear a growing number in Muslim countries it is because of a vision. For myself, it was largely the history, that the faith was built upon, and referencing back to that history.
I do think that you may be under estimating apologetics however. A good number of people come to God through reason. J. Warner Wallace recently posted on this. Both himself and the interviewer (Abdu Murray) both became Christians because of evidence. http://coldcasechristianity.com/2016/i-c...ologetics/ I think you would probably like Wallaces books. He says a lot about his coming to be a Christian from what he describes as a aggressive atheists, and his approach and experience as an investigative detective.
I'm glad you asked the question. I'm finding the responses both interesting and informative.
You know, I've not read Wallace. I have, however, been reading about him (from his own online writings and what a lot of his adoring fans write about him), and I'm laughing so hard I can hardly type!
To start with, he frequently references McDowell and Strobel, two of the worst apologists I've ever encountered (and yes, I have several of their books, from before I left the faith and while my family was trying to stop me from deconverting). His explanations of why the Gospels may be considered valid eyewitness accounts not only leave out the myriad problems with relying on eyewitness testimony--in other words, he paints a rosy picture of eyewitness testimony, which is hardly surprising for a Homicide detective to consider as more reliable than actual studies demonstrate that it is, not to mention the whole "every person who is later proven innocent by science was convicted by a homicide detective's reading and interpretation of the eyewitness accounts" thing--but it also ignores the rapidly-increasing "claims of divinity/magic over time", as each new account is turned in (written), which should be a giant, waving red flag to any honest cop, between the time of the early Epistles, to Mark, and eventually to John. Most laughably, he refers to the (relative) consistency of the gospels and the fact that they were selected by the church fathers for "accuracy" over 300 years after Jesus' death, as evidence of their trustworthiness. What a joke!
It's like claiming that, if a committee of Soviet commissars chose a bunch of red cards out of a deck, that it means red is the right color. No bias on the selection committee! No chance that the reason those were chosen is they suited the particular theology of that sect (Orthodoxy, as it would come to be called). If that constitutes Christian "reasoning", then I'm terrified for all the people he wrongly put in prison as a result of his "reasoning" process.
I especially laughed at his attack on methodological naturalism, in which he gave the example of his partner, who presumed the husband had murdered his wife because that was "usually" the case in such murders, when in fact it was the neighbor, and then implied that because naturalists exclude supernatural explanations, our minds are closed. It's the biggest red herring I've seen in months! There is not now, nor has there ever been, actual evidence of supernatural events-- except for eyewitness testimony, the same "evidence" that gives us alien abductions in the Nevada desert and houses alleged to be haunted by ghosts. I'm really not kidding, RoadRunner... you really really need to read The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark, so you can furnish yourself with a Baloney Detection Kit, and begin to understand the common thread (and human psychology involved) in pseudoscientific, magical claims by "eyewitnesses".
A Christian told me: if you were saved you cant lose your salvation. you're sealed with the Holy Ghost I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.
The main reasons for Islam’s growth ultimately involve simple demographics. To begin with, Muslims have more children than members of the seven other major religious groups analyzed in the study. Each Muslim woman has an average of 3.1 children, significantly above the next-highest group (Christians at 2.7) and the average of all non-Muslims (2.3). In all major regions where there is a sizable Muslim population, Muslim fertility exceeds non-Muslim fertility.
The growth of the Muslim population also is helped by the fact that Muslims have the youngest median age (23 in 2010) of all major religious groups, seven years younger than the median age of non-Muslims (30). A larger share of Muslims will soon be at the point in their lives when people begin having children. This, combined with high fertility rates, will accelerate Muslim population growth.
Do you a link that shows data on adult conversions to Islam?
(May 6, 2016 at 10:35 am)SteveII Wrote: You are probably right--a bias will form. Is your assertion that faith is a direct result of locale and upbringing? That does not make sense if at least 15% of Christians (in the US) become so as adults nor does it explain the tremendous growth of Christianity in Africa and China (which would presumably be a much higher rate of adult conversion.
It seem like more of an opinion rather than a fact that Christians should just "accept".
So Islam growth is caused by parents/indoctrination/locale but christians are a bit more discerning?
A couple of points.
1) It does not seem that Muslims evangelize anywhere near the level of Christians. Yet they are growing. Pew research indicates their projections are based on population growth.
2) Muslims are becoming Christians. While I could not read the whole paper, a well cited source from Wikipedia: According to 2015 Believers in Christ from a Muslim Background: A Global Census study estimates 10,283,700 Muslim convert to Christianity around the world (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_...ion_growth). The paper itself: https://www.academia.edu/16338087/Believ...bal_Census
Related to the OP, Muslims do not have the life/teachings of Jesus, which I claim resonates with a large number of people and is the main cause of adult conversion.
(May 7, 2016 at 2:28 am)robvalue Wrote: I don't get the point of this.
I'm reading it as, "It's understandable people get drawn into this cult. It doesn't make them dumb."
I agree with that. It's totally understandable. It doesn't necessarily make them dumb at all. The tactics that are employed to hook people in range from devious to downright harmful. If there is another message here that isn't just an appeal to popularity, I don't know what it is. We could just as easily be discussing a confidence trickster.
Is this another "I'm not crazy for believing this" attempt? I'm coming to the conclusion that a lot of theists are here to convince themselves of this.
The point of this is to explain why people become Christians. The constant string of posts from most of your members are all about science and proof and how stupid Christians are for ignoring what you see as obvious. The debates are usually about logic, metaphysics, or science so some might conclude that is what the real issue is about. It is not.
May 8, 2016 at 7:02 am (This post was last modified: May 8, 2016 at 7:03 am by paulpablo.)
(May 8, 2016 at 6:52 am)SteveII Wrote:
(May 7, 2016 at 2:28 am)robvalue Wrote: I don't get the point of this.
I'm reading it as, "It's understandable people get drawn into this cult. It doesn't make them dumb."
I agree with that. It's totally understandable. It doesn't necessarily make them dumb at all. The tactics that are employed to hook people in range from devious to downright harmful. If there is another message here that isn't just an appeal to popularity, I don't know what it is. We could just as easily be discussing a confidence trickster.
Is this another "I'm not crazy for believing this" attempt? I'm coming to the conclusion that a lot of theists are here to convince themselves of this.
The point of this is to explain why people become Christians. The constant string of posts from most of your members are all about science and proof and how stupid Christians are for ignoring what you see as obvious. The debates are usually about logic, metaphysics, or science so some might conclude that is what the real issue is about. It is not.
As I said in my post, most Christians become Christians because of bribery and threats of violence made to them as children.
Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.
(May 7, 2016 at 7:20 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: One aspect of this that hasn't been discussed is the fact that religious belief is inversely proportional to both socioeconomic class and education. One can think what one wills about the implications of that, but it would seem to imply that the poor and the ignorant find the message of Christ more appealing. If the message is so popular, why does it appeal most to the downtrodden? That sounds to me like the beliefs take advantage of the vulnerabilities of a distressed population. So it is not simply that the message is appealing, but that the message is appealing to certain types and for specific reasons. Otherwise that message would appeal unilaterally to all classes.
While it may be a non sequitur in this thread, it bears emphasizing that because a message is appealing doesn't make it any more likely to be true. Indeed, the appeal of the message may instead of marking a sign of truthfulness, signal a departure from reality. It's easier to make promises if you don't have to stick to the truth.
A good point. But appealing more to the downtrodden would be understandable in any generation because of the hope and peace that is inherent in the message. The message in the Gospels though it that everyone is in the same boat. Wealth make people feel secure and brings its own form of "happiness". People in this position, will not be as prompted to investigate what other forms of happiness there might be.
(May 8, 2016 at 6:52 am)SteveII Wrote: The point of this is to explain why people become Christians. The constant string of posts from most of your members are all about science and proof and how stupid Christians are for ignoring what you see as obvious. The debates are usually about logic, metaphysics, or science so some might conclude that is what the real issue is about. It is not.
As I said in my post, most Christians become Christians because of bribery and threats of violence made to them as children.
May 8, 2016 at 7:20 am (This post was last modified: May 8, 2016 at 7:22 am by robvalue.)
Has anyone ever "come to Jesus" without having heard about him and the stories surrounding him for long periods?
I think not. The seeping in of ideas surrounding you is not surprising. People independently describing "meeting" Jesus, while isolated from any mention of him, would be surprising.
In short, people are very susceptible to the appeal to popularity fallacy. If many people seem to believe it, it appears a reasonable belief.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.
