Most personally convincing reasons you don't believe.

[The Grand Nudger]

I know that's what I do Stimbo..when I find weeds in my field, I blame them.

[Drich]

That's the point!!! The bible Fallible or not is not supposed to be enough. This isn't some man made religious nonsense. The bible is the key to give you direct access to God. It is also the tool we use to verify it is God who we are speaking with.

For instance in my first encounter I was judged and sent to Hell. Long before I knew the specifics of what the bible said about judgement, Hell, or the nature of any of it. My understanding was based on the Roman catholic model of St.Peter standing at the gates, levels of a hell where Satan ruled. Everything as far as i knew of the Judgement and Hell was completely Wrong. Yet slowly and over very long periods of study I have found my experience to reflect exactly what the bible says about our judgement. Again the bible was the tool I use to vet my experience. It was also the tool I used to Find God. It is not the center of my experience of God.

I think I need to explain what I mean by bias. Bias is not so much a feature of the brain but a core principle of its operation... it's in everything we do and in a general sense it can't be avoided but by understanding it we can at least see how much influence it does have and guard against it. I'll try and keep this short. In neural terms bias comes from the fact that our ideas and representations are interconnected - associated - with each other... when you 'activate' one idea it sends out activation to everything it's associated with. That in turn primes/biases those related ideas making them easier to activate than they would be on their own... it is what allows such illusions as seeing Jesus on a piece of toast because you think about Jesus all the time   Not you... people. Any time you think about something... anything...  this process happens... it's an ongoing and never ending dynamic of how the brain works.

So, putting it into context, if you've spent twenty years of your life in some sort of quest to find God, even if you've come to dead ends along the way, it's still clear that the idea of God is a huge influence in your life which primes everything related to it. And if you're using the Bible to constantly 'vet' your experience then to be blunt I'm not surprised you're getting the answers you want. I don't mean that in a mean way, I just mean I'm not surprised given how the brain works.

That's a very poor attempt at a sweeping dismissal, or you were so anxious to explain what 'bias' means to you that you did not fully understand the example provided.

My "bias" was to the catholic Church as that was the total understanding of what 'church' was supposed to be. The mythos they have created around hell specifically was my only knoweledge of Hell.

Till I one night I stood before Christ (which again looked nothing like what I have always imagined) was judged and cast into the 'pit.' No levels, no flames, but I was consumed and reacted like I was on fire. I also found out that the flames of Hell will 'burn' through one's sanity, and what makes you 'you' is consumed by Hell fire. Meaning one's experience in Hell is finite. This was my experience. Something I could have never known as my understanding of Hell (like most of yours) is based on the divine comedy/Dante's inferno, which stands is stark contrast to what I experienced.

This experience began my journey to seek out the truth. I did not start with the bible I started with a friend's invitation to church, where they believed as the catholic did about hell. It took years of personal study to vet and over come the 'religious' understanding of Hell and properly support and compile a contextual biblical description of it. Which BTW 20+ years later I can tell you is spot on to what the bible has to say in the Greek and English.

Now do you understand? I had a specific bias going in, but a stronger need for truth. I followed the truth (even though it took me away from what I thought was 'God') and it eventually supported everything I had experienced.

It's like reading the last page of a book that references characters and situations you have no idea that was even in the book, first. Then read the book and watch how all of what you were privy to in the beginning fits in with the last page.

That my confused friend is the opposite of bias.

Again, this is part of the problem with bias. If you have no 'failure standards' for prayer or prophecy then you are almost guaranteed to perceive an answer to prayer or a fulfilment of prophecy sometime down the line. That's the problem with having open-ended prayers and prophecies, but if you want anything more specific - which in essence does have failure standards - you're chastised for testing god or whatever... so basically, and conveniently, only open-ended prayer is allowed.

How can you not have a failure standard for prayer or prophesy? In another instance I met a 'messenger' who 'prophesied' about specifics of my life. All of what he has said has come true so far. there are a few things yet to happen but I can see them unfolding. (including a 'short' life.) If the specific prophesies about love, family, Father, wisdom, wealth, business come true, then the prophet is genuine. if one thing is off then it's all garbage.

Prayer. God says He will honor ALL prayer. How can one not properly identify a failure standard here?
(once you know the difference between petition and prayer)

I'll tell you what... allow the diversity of a gay church and then we'll talk   JK.

Then speak.
So long as the 'church' does not endorse sin where the bible identifies it, then their is no issue, as having homosexuality as you sin of choice as homosexuality is no different than any other sexual sin. (Which are rampant in all churches, but again not endorsed.)

The same standard that applies to one church concerning sexual sin should apply to all sexual sin. do you not agree?

No because again Paul points to the church as being like the physical Body of Christ. Each one of us has a different role, function, as a member of the body. and we are shaped and tailored for our intended use. Which makes us all a little different. So for a congregation of "hands" they will seek out 'work' that hands do, and for them this is what the whole word of God is about. For a congregation of 'eyes' they will seek out work that eyes do, and so on.

Now if the whole body of believers were hands or eyes then yes all that is needed is one church one doctrine. However as it has been explained to us in several places in scripture, we are all different and our roles in the body of believers are different, and therefore it is not a hand's or an eye's place to judge how a 'foot' or ear serves the body.

Okay thanks for sharing your perspective on that. I don't know what to make of it yet but thanks for sharing anyway.

specifically what do you not understand?

Perhaps confirmation bias wasn't the clearest term to use in this case. I see all bias as confirmation bias because in neural network terms that's exactly what it is...

So prooving a hypothesis scientifically is a confirmation bias?

it biases towards confirmation of ideas related to the one that was first activated... it makes them statistically more likely to be activated than other non-biased ideas and in fact there's even an effect that can actively inhibit competing ideas, thus making the bias even stronger.

But again, if an experience contradicts a preconception or a bias one has, and one changes his thoughts on a subject because he knows his bias was not consistent with the truth, then how can you call that a bias?

You are trying to force this definition onto a situation because your bias is the belief that this explanation and definition always shuts down any experiential account of God. Why? because most stories confirm what the teller already believes. I have clearly stated several times none of what I knew to be true was. The only commonality between what I thought was God and the God of the bible that I can not vet scripturaly is the word "God."

So that's what I mean by it. The more traditional use of the term is very obvious in the mafia case... you hypothesise that x,y,and z are a scum team and are more likely to notice things related to that that confirm that hypothesis than not, and each one you notice increases the bias in leaps and bounds until you (can) experience a full blown paranoid delusion. But in your case I'd still see it as confirmation bias because ultimately the hypothesis is 'god exists' and that's where the bias comes from.

The problem your understanding of the bias is that I hypothesized that xy and z was a 'scum team' and I found the opposite to be true therefore I change my view point.

The problem is that the investment that you're requiring there... the meeting half way... is exactly the part I don't trust because of all these mechanisms of bias. That's the part that's asking you to get emotionally invested so that the bias will be more effective.

This is another example of your own personal bias. A/S/K or meeting God 1/2 way in no way include any type of indoctrination, nor non critical thought. You simply wait and ask/seek till God shows up. I questioned everything along the way, that is why I can provide answers that some may have.

Cool. Hope to see you there sometime.

[Drich]

A truth teller or teacher -must- convince.  I don't really think he takes this god shit seriously at all.  Are we to believe that he's here in the midst of us....our eternal souls in terrible peril...and he figures showing us a picture of bigfoot will assuage his sense of culpability or empathy as we face the flame..even if we don't believe or he fails to convince?  That he can get away from his own conscience and humanity by saying the words in our presence...and calling it a job done?

As much as I enjoy the notion as a foundation for an endless line of jokes at his expense, it's unlikely that he's -that- sort of a terrible douche.

What you habitually fail to understand is I can offer you nothing outside of the starting line to your journey of 'proofing'

Do you want to stand before God and spit in his eye? I did, and I was so foolish as to 'challenge' God to give me that chance.

Do you think 'Hell' Meh, how can a 'spirit burn' if I left all my nerve endings in my casket? I did.

Ever wonder what an angel is like? Ever wonder how someone could be mystified by one?

Ever was to know God personally? Ever want to ask Him Questions? Ever wanted Real answers? Ever want anything that you heard about in the bible that God offered to someone else?

I did... And I don't want for anything, anymore. because I got everything I've ever asked for and more. I honestly stopped asking for that kind of stuff.

All of that said I do not have the ability to share or give you all any of it. All I can do it point you in the same direction offer to walk beside you down the same path I did.

For me I hate sales men. I want to know facts, and I dont want to wade promises a sales man makes that he can not keep. If there are promises being made I want to get them from the source.

That is why I am providing facts, and offering to point you to the source.

[Drich]

Okay, just remember I gave you a chance:

---

from post 195

Do you understand???

I am Saying That those who are older than Christianity do not lend themselves to the biblical narrative. Meaning their stories and the Gospel are not similar.

Again I am not saying their are older text. I am saying those that are can't be used as examples of "religious borrowing" The examples people use are either inaccurate or are from religions who's religious text post date the bible even if the religion itself has been known to exist before Christianity.

Even with our 'vast knoweledge' of the Greek pantheon of gods our earliest complete work is from the 15th century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliothec...lodorus%29

As far as the Egyptians are concerned even less is known. Yes we have papyrus, tomb paintings, and various scraps and pieces of stories from one place or another, but in truth that's all we have. scraps. bits and pieces we have cobbled together from what is left of that society. In truth we don't even know what we don't know. as their is not one example or even anything close to a narrative that ties everything together. we just have what we currently think. Fact of the matter is the new kingdom/the reign of the Ramses deleted anything that was not of their system of belief.

Kind like someone trying to piece together what an ISIS held city believed 4000 years after they destroyed defaced and looted everything. We are currently cobbling together everything from the three dynasties into one big giant all encompassing narrative when infact some believe that everything attributed to the Egyptians could be from another unknown society all together. while the Egyptians reused and painted over what was left behind.

---

Your knowledge of archaeology, historical manuscripts, and ancient Egypt is stunningly underwhelming.  You must be taking it from xtian apologetics websites or xtian radio preachers or . . . wikipedia, thinking that "earliest complete work" proves something.  If you're insisting upon some "complete" bible, then you need to throw your King James version in the trash.  
    I've read some of those apologetics websites, where they crap their pants and deconstruct language trying to disprove that the Osiris myth, for example, influenced xtianity.  It's hilarious and sad at the same time - the complete lack of scholarship or intellectual integrity displayed by these people who are desperate to prove that their fantasies are true.
   The "dying and rising god" theme was prevalent in many cultures in the Middle East long before a ragtag contentious group split off from Canaanite tribes.  It's terribly easy to prove - - and to do so by the remaining writings, some from thousands of years before Jeebus.  And the stories are extremely similar - - more importantly, the concept is similar.  People trying to disprove them nitpick at the details - - they seem to think they can prove the forest doesn't exist because all of the trees aren't the same type.
  "In the ancient world there was a very widespread belief in the sufferings and deaths of gods as being beneficial to man. Adonis, Attis, Dionysos, Herakles, Mithra, Osiris, and other deities, were all saviour-gods whose deaths were regarded as sacrifices made on behalf of mankind; and it is to be noticed that in almost every case there is clear evidence that the god sacrificed himself to himself."

Sir Arthur Weigall, The Paganism in Our Christianity

citations???

Or is your supposed "whelming" knowledge supposed to be enough?

[Drich]

I won't throw tomatoes, but I will remind you that either his ASK nonsense is bullshit or that post is bullshit, and even -he- can't believe both simultaneously.  We're told..in that post, that god will do -whatever- needs to be done to establish or maintain belief...but just a few breaths ago (and for a year or two now) he's been telling  us there's only -one- way that god is going to respond..that he's not willing to do whatever...he's only willing to respond to ASKing.

His theology is a hot mess...and his posts exists as a record of that.

Sooo.. How would you have God respond?

If you received an invite to the white house for a black tie dinner to meet the president would you show up in your fav jeans and a tee shirt, and demand he meet you on your terms?

Or do you meet the requirements that the authority figure has placed on your meeting?

[The Grand Nudger]

I haven't received an invitation from either the president or a god......nor have many others, despite your protestations..and even when they did try your method. Precisely what I keep telling you. Personally, I don't have any demands on when or how god met me. I don't care whether or not we meet in the first place. If god wants to meet me, okay. If god has restrictions that will prevent him from meeting me..then we won't meet, and I;m okay with that as well.

I don't believe that you speak for a god and I know you aren't a god, so your opinions on the matter or what restrictions you believe are in place have no value to me in the matters of gods.

[Edwardo Piet]

Some who want to seem good prove to be wankering off all over the forum

Haha, I forgot about wankering! I should say it more!

Thanks to Judi for correcting my spelling. I always used to spell it "wanking" but she let me know the correct spelling.



-HammyZehClumsyTurtleWankerer

[Drich]

What if what needs to change is your understanding of God?

What if He is not limited to the realm of the "Supernatural?" God is the creator of the NATURAL world, WHY would He create something He could only "move/act" supernaturally in?

Why would or should the actions of a God who moves in the natural world, be indistinguishable from the ordinary/mundane?

Exactly!

God hides from those who see themselves as 'wise' in the Mundane. Look at who he choose to lead the jews out of egypt, look at How Jesus came into the world, Look at Jesus' ministry. The 'mundane' is a tool or a pattern God repeated uses through out the bible to set himself apart from the pictures and ideas that people think 'God' is supposed to be and act like.

Can you imagine how up setting it was to the holiest of holy Jews to expect or almost demand that the messiah be born as past kings were born and follow and honor their traditional views, but instead their messiah came in the way of  they would dismiss as a common man save for the fact that He could do thing they could not explain.

So now fast forward 2000 years and lets say we can explain some of Jesus was able to do. does that change anything?  does it change the fact that on demand he can use the natural process that have been put into place since the beginning to effect his will or the will of the Father?

That is how God Hides Himself from the 'wise' and reveals Himself to the Humble. The Humble are willing to forgo their understanding of God and take Him as He is. while the 'wise' of this world expect God to be certain things.

You for example demand God be supernatural and always mystical. What if God doesn't want to be unknowable? Who then should win out? Your picture of a always unknowable supernatural being? Or what the Alpha and Omega wants for himself?

So then if He presents as something you do not expect then is He not hidden to you? Just like He said He would do?

[Drich]

Meh, maybe I'm just obstinent on this one..but it's difficult for me to imagine a scenario where a person slams a door behind them...says to me "there's a fucking werewolf in there, we've gotta run!" - really believes it........and then just -lets- me open the door because I dared to smile and say "I don't believe you".  No effort made, whatsoever.

-and I'm not just being an optimist here, study after study show us that that really isn't the way that people behave with each other in the sorts of situations where we perceive ourselves or others to be in even -minor- danger.  The chances of our resident liar for christ being one of the vanishingly few aberrations of humanity that would behave like this beggars belief almost as much as his stories about monkeymen.

I've thought that same thing. My mother is a devout Christian and she knows exactly where I stand when it comes to ideas of that sort, but I remember she came to visit a few years back and the subject came up. I asked her what she thought heaven would be like, and she painted me a euphoric picture of bliss. I said that was weird that she was able to picture being in heaven and enjoying herself there...she asked why? I said "because I won't be there, and you'd know why...and IF you WERE in heaven and I wasn't-then you'd know where I was instead...and for an eternity, you'd feel entirely blissful knowing that I was simultaneously being tortured in some alternative other realm?...I don't think I'd be able consider that state of mind to be paradise...an eternity of knowing my son was in agony somewhere praying for death...(awkward silence) -Lets have a drink!

How can anyone hold such conflicting views without the slightest hint of dissonance?...Unless, they really don't believe one of them...

..We try to find other things to discuss.

Seriously?!?!?

When you were 10 who was your best friend that was around your age?

Is that person your best friend now?

Why not?

Ever break up with someone you love?

Ever get a divorce?

How do you think it possible to have such strong love for someone then not?

In short we grow up. we mature. we change. what we saw in our friends as small children often amount to proximity and a fondness for similar things. As we age our minds develop and what was once the center of our world can all but be forgotten memories. This is true for anything given a steady progressive growth and enough time.

I believe in this world in this life we are only operating at a small fraction of our intended mental capacity and have extremely low awareness of all of creation.

If Heaven includes mental and spiritual birth or awakening to God and his glory the things of this world will mean very little to nothing.

Just look at how Heaven is Described. Streets of Gold Jeweled gates etc... It basically takes our most precious items and makes them common everyday building materials. Meaning they will have very little to no value. Lest you think you can buy a new car with a 100 lb chunk of asphalt.

Father mother son daughter husband wife.. are all relative terms. At our core we are souls. we live out the roles I mentioned because we either elect or are born into them, but the bible identifies us as being spiritual beings, in familial terms we are all brothers and sisters. Not father or mothers. In short your earthly attachments won't mean what they do now.

[The Grand Nudger]

What you habitually fail to understand is I can offer you nothing outside of the starting line to your journey of 'proofing'

You haven't given me any reason to believe that you can offer this.  

Do you want to stand before God and spit in his eye? I did, and I was so foolish as to 'challenge' God to give me that chance.

No.

Do you think 'Hell' Meh, how can a 'spirit burn' if I left all my nerve endings in my casket? I did.

No.

Ever wonder what an angel is like? Ever wonder how someone could be mystified by one?

....no

Ever was to know God personally? Ever want to ask Him Questions? Ever wanted Real answers? Ever want anything that you heard about in the bible that God offered to someone else?

No.

I did... And I don't want for anything, anymore. because I got everything I've ever asked for and more. I honestly stopped asking for that kind of stuff.

Still pretending you aren't trying to sell something, lol?

All of that said I do not have the ability to share or give you all any of it. All I can do it point you in the same direction offer to walk beside you down the same path I did.

-and in case you missed it...what I;m suggesting..is that you are -completely- inept when it comes to pointing people in the right direction....so if I'm not headed in the right direction...it might have something to do with the direction you're pointing in......

For me I hate sales men. I want to know facts, and I dont want to wade promises a sales man makes that he can not keep. If there are promises being made I want to get them from the source.

Precisely the problem.  You just  pulled an infomercial product testimonial on me up there....but I still haven't heard from or seen any gods......

That is why I am providing facts, and offering to point you to the source.

The day you manage to turn your beliefs into facts is the day I remind you that I'm still not going to be a christian.

The place you're pointing to doesn't seem to have any gods in it. That's the entire problem Drich. Maybe you should check again...maybe you're just mis-remembering where you left them or found them?