Leaving christianity, a bit of my story

[robvalue]

The concept of god must be introduced before the age of reason? Why?

Again, isn't this just an admission that you need a brain incapable of properly assessing the subject matter? Otherwise, why can't it wait?

Same with prayer. Why? Do you fear a reasoned, thinking child will laugh at the idea? Because they likely will. I did.

Will God not be interested in a kid that hasn't had this stuff poured into their vulnerable brain? If so, maybe that tells you something.

We introduce our kids to good and bad before the age of reason.  Why not introduce them to a good concept like God and prayer?   It doesn't have anything to do with fear of how they will receive it.   I believe you think the way you do because you think those are bad concepts.  You're demonstrating your own bias in your theory.

"Good" and "bad" are extremely vague concepts. Sure, you can help a child develop what kind of things they might mean, and why. But they are umbrella terms, and by teaching the child how to think, they will inevitably come to these conclusions on their own. It's just words. They are also abstract concepts, unlike "God" which you wish to present as actually existent without a shred of evidence.

God and prayer have never been demonstrated to be anything other than indulging your own imagination. They have no practical use whatsoever (beyond the placebo effect). And as such, they're certainly not obviously "good" either. I'd say sitting around talking to yourself isn't good. And a concept so ill-defined that no one can even explain to me what it is without resorting to world salad gibberish is not useful for a developing mind.

My bias is towards reality. I don't consider that a bad thing. Understanding good and bad is useful, even before the age of reason. How is God and prayer useful to them? Why the need to shove them into the young brain? It can't wait a few years, really? You want to lock them into one mode of thinking: goddidit. That's your bias, and I don't know why you consider that so essential. Are you concerned an older child will scoff? It's a serious question. I scoffed. I laughed my head off. At age five.

How am I biased by saying don't indoctrinate them with any unnecessary concepts? You can't present God as a reasonable idea, so to present it as truth to a child is indoctrination. I'm not being biased by asking you to keep your own bias out of it. "Goddidit" is a narrow mode of thinking which can and does provide a barrier to learning.

[Lek]

"Good" and "bad" are extremely vague concepts.

That's what public schools teach today.  No wonder kids have no idea about what is good or bad.  

They are also abstract concepts, unlike "God" which you wish to present as actually existent without a shred of evidence.

Are you as frustrated as I am after 2 1/2 years in this forum during which I stated many times my evidence for God?

God and prayer have never been demonstrated to be anything other than indulging your own imagination.

I have had prayer answered in very specific ways.  You refuse to accept the evidence.

Are you concerned an older child will scoff? It's a serious question. I scoffed. I laughed my head off. At age five.

No.  I'm not concerned an older child will scoff.  I get scoffed at all the time.  I love the debate.  My kids scoff at me plenty over numerous things and we have a good time.  They're not a scientific or social experiment; they're my kids.

How am I biased by saying don't indoctrinate them with any unnecessary concepts? You can't present God as a reasonable idea, so to present it as truth to a child is indoctrination.

You just stated your bias by calling God an unnecessary concept.  That is your bias and you develop your idea of how to raise children partly based on that bias.  I do the same thing.  At least I give my kids the opportunity to openly discuss my beliefs.  Of course, I didn't discuss religion and doctrine with them when when they were five, but I did tell them about God who made them and can see and hear them.
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[robvalue]

Okay, well I can't really respond to that without repeating myself so I'll leave it. I don't see much point going through all the claims you've made there as we've been through them many times before.

I appreciate you're willing at least leave religion out of it for young minds.

Yes, "good" and "bad" are vague. They're entirely subjective. And they can mean all sorts of different things in different contexts.

[The Grand Nudger]

Kids aren't having any more trouble determining the good from the bad than they ever have..what sort of dystopian shithole do you pretend to live in, lol.   After two years you ought to realize that there is either something wrong with what you're arguing for...or you just aren't doing it right.  Only a fool would trudge through life intentionally repeating his failures.

You didn't discuss religion or doctrine with them, but you told them god made them and was watching and could hear them.....?  Kind of a 180 there, bud.

[Lek]

Kids aren't having any more trouble determining the good from the bad than they ever have..what sort of dystopian shithole do you pretend to live in, lol.   After two years you ought to realize that there is either something wrong with what you're arguing for...or you just aren't doing it right.  Only a fool would trudge through life intentionally repeating his failures.  

You didn't discuss religion or doctrine with them, but you told them god made them and was watching and could hear them.....?  Kind of a 180 there, bud.

Maybe so if believing in God and practicing a religion were the same, but their not.

[The Grand Nudger]

What on earth are you talking about?  You told us that you didn't discuss religion or doctrine with them in the same breath that you told us that you discussed your religion  and doctrines with them.  

I'm not giving you shit for discussing your religion and doctrines with your own damned kids...lol, I just think it's amusing that you've either convinced yourself, or wish to convince us, that you haven't.  That's your secular indocrination in our modern godless world creeping in on you.

[Lek]

What on earth are you talking about?  You told us that you didn't discuss religion or doctrine with them in the same breath that you told us that you discussed your religion  and doctrines with them.  

I'm not giving you shit for discussing your religion and doctrines with your own damned kids...lol, I just think it's amusing that you've either convinced yourself, or wish to convince us, that you haven't.  That's your secular indocrination in our modern godless world creeping in on you.

I said that I didn't discuss religion and doctrine with them when they were under the age of reason, but I did tell them about God. Now that they are at the age of reason I do discuss religion and doctrine. Did I say something different?

[The Grand Nudger]

In your mind, telling them about the christian god who made them and hears them and watches them isn't discussing your religion or doctrines.  Factually, it is, but that's irrelevant in context. 

 Don't you think that's interesting...how much faith and people of faith have changed as a result of secularism and the increasing primacy placed upon reason and rationality?  A few generations ago you told kids all about christ as soon as they could sit there and listen.  You were a bad person for not doing so...today..you, as a believer, feel better about waiting until "the age of reason" ....even if you actually didn't do that. I suppose it tickles me because we hear about this new godless world and all it;'s perils so often, but as outsiders, we can easily identify those instances in which the faithful have seemlessly and effortlessly incorporated the very things they rail against into their own faithful lives.