The real religion?

[LadyForCamus]

Steve...by your logic:

I experience a personal relationship with Genie from 'Aladdin' (Disney version). Therefore, this is proof that the Genie from Disney's 'Aladdin' exists.

Air tight, man.

[Simon Moon]

Billions of people have entered into a relationship with God. Their experience/testimony would be empirical evidence for everything we are discussing. 

Billions of people have CLAIMED to have entered a relationship with 'God', many gods actually.

If 1.5 billion Muslims clam to have a personal relationship with their god, is that 'empirical evidence' that Allah exists?

You are guilty of the fallacy of special pleading. Not too impressive.

I doubt whether you know what the term 'empirical evidence' means.

Do you believe that every Christian that claims to have entered a 'personal relationship with God' has actually done so, or is there some percentage of Christians that are delusional, or fooling themselves, or misinterpreting some other feeling as a 'personal relationship with God'?

[bennyboy]

I have examined the truth claims of the Bible. Also, Judaism, Islam, Mormonism, JW, and a little Hinduism. What is your point? 

No you haven't. You're making it up. Tell me about your great study of the "truth claims" of the Bible. Have you examined the truth claim of Jesus' miracles? Or even his existence? I want specific details about specific truth claims, because I don't believe that you've done what you say you've done. Never happened.

Billions of people have entered into a relationship with God. Their experience/testimony would be empirical evidence for everything we are discussing. 

You don't know what "empirical" means, then. Would you like a link to an online dictionary?

I have met Christians. Many do not model Christ very well. Many do. Your point? 

If your point is there is no proof for God, I obviously would disagree. Among other things, why isn't someone's experience proof for the existence of God?

I dreamed I was having sex with Tomb Raider era Angelina Jolie. It felt really really real to me. . . So I guess that proves I really had sex with her.

Oh wait. . . feelings aren't evidence for anything but feelings. Just because you can psych yourself into getting boosebumps when you talk about The Lord doesn't mean that your fairy tales represent reality.

[Edwardo Piet]

Steve...by your logic:

I experience a personal relationship with Genie from 'Aladdin' (Disney version).  Therefore, this is proof that the Genie from Disney's 'Aladdin' exists.

Air tight, man.  

Maybe this means Robin is till with us

I hope so.

[SteveII]

Among other things, why isn't someone's experience proof for the existence of God?

So what sort of experiences happen among so-called "born again Christians" that other people could never experience without turning to Christ?

Well, the list of verses I posted earlier touches on several aspects (see below) but the biggest one is having a relationship with God (Holy Spirit). It would change you. 

Matt 11:28: “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. "
II Cor 5:17 "If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come"
Eph 1:3 "We have been blessed in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ "
I John 1:9 “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness”
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Gal 5:22-23 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. " (aka fruits of the spirit)
I John 1:3-4 "That which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. And we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete."
John 14:15-17 "“If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you."

[GrandizerII]

So what sort of experiences happen among so-called "born again Christians" that other people could never experience without turning to Christ?

Well, the list of verses I posted earlier touches on several aspects (see below) but the biggest one is having a relationship with God (Holy Spirit). It would change you. 

Matt 11:28: “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. "
II Cor 5:17 "If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come"
Eph 1:3 "We have been blessed in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ "
I John 1:9 “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness”
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Gal 5:22-23 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. " (aka fruits of the spirit)
I John 1:3-4 "That which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. And we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete."
John 14:15-17 "“If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you."

Been there, done that. Nothing observable happened that couldn't have happened for anyone without Christ. Same with all the other "born again" Christians I have known personally.

[bennyboy]

Well, the list of verses I posted earlier touches on several aspects (see below) but the biggest one is having a relationship with God (Holy Spirit). It would change you. 

Matt 11:28: “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. "
II Cor 5:17 "If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come"
Eph 1:3 "We have been blessed in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ "
I John 1:9 “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness”
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Gal 5:22-23 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. " (aka fruits of the spirit)
I John 1:3-4 "That which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. And we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete."
John 14:15-17 "“If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you."

Yeah, nobody can have peace, kindness, or love without Jesus our Lord and Personal Savior™.

So. . . how is the personal relationship of Zika babies with God? Working out pretty well for them, is it?

[SteveII]

1. Again, your opinion. Evangelical Christianity has decreased by 0.9% in 7 years in the US. Is that even the margin of error? Probably not cause for celebration. Numbers are growing worldwide. 
2. Feel better is different than a change in character, self-worth, conduct, outlook, and hope. You are trying to minimize the change to fit your argument. As I mentioned in my longer post a page back, can you generate that kind of change with a non-religious experience? If so, what? If not, why not? 
3. You are confusing my point. "...love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control" as well as hope is subjective but a change in a person to these qualities is objectively better than not.

bold mine

1. Source for the bold. I'll bet I can find sources that say otherwise. Christian sources. Suck it up, you are loosing.
2. You are trying to maximize change to fit yours. So any beneficial change requires religion, horseshit. Surviving an accident/illness can cause a change. Being imprisoned can cause a change. Being struck by lightening can cause a change. Death of someone close can cause a change. Education can cause a change. Science can cause a change. Medicine can cause a change.
3. I'm not confusing anything. You are not impartial.

1. Pew Research http://www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/ameri...landscape/
2. I see you moved from your original 'feeling' to changes in a person. Your examples could induce change in a person (for good or bad). Salvation as part of Christianity induces a specific set of large scale changes that are repeated over and over for millennium. Setting aside the catastrophic causes, how does education, science or medicine change a person in the way I was describing? More specifically, how do these things change a persons character so they exhibit things like love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control and hope when none may have existed before? I still don't think you can identify one non-religious process that can produce similar results with any kind of predictable consistency. Therefore, the experience that does reliably produce these effects as well as the individual's intuition that their relationship with God is real is empirical evidence for the existence of God.
3. Impartiality has nothing to do with it. The effects of salvation as described in the NT and as experienced by a believer leaves a person in an objectively better (psychologically and sociologically) state than they were previously.

[SteveII]

Among other things, why isn't someone's experience proof for the existence of God?

Because it is not reproducible. It is only their story/testimony. People have stories about experience with aliens. Do you consider that proof of aliens? People have stories about experience with bigfoot. People have stories about experience with poltergeists. People have stories about experience talking to the dead. Do you consider any of these proof?

You are wallowing in your delusion, which is fine. Don't expect me to join you.

There are 2.3 billion "Christians" in the world. Don't you think that we can find at least a few hundred million that we can see genuine change and that firmly believe they have a relationship with God? The alien thing is so old and makes no point whatsoever no matter how many times it is repeated. Do billions of alien abductees (or whatever you want to insert in this sentence) share a common experience over two millennium?

[SteveII]

Steve...by your logic:

I experience a personal relationship with Genie from 'Aladdin' (Disney version).  Therefore, this is proof that the Genie from Disney's 'Aladdin' exists.

Air tight, man.  

Find a few billion people who share your experience and track those people over 2000 years and you might have a point that makes sense.