Posts: 282
Threads: 7
Joined: August 25, 2010
Reputation:
4
RE: Atheism worships a dead god.
August 31, 2010 at 3:50 pm
(August 26, 2010 at 4:10 pm)Entropist Wrote: (August 26, 2010 at 3:54 pm)Existentialist Wrote: \We obviously don't share the same definitions, so this could take some time! My definitions are as follows.
Atheist = Someone who asserts that there is no god
Here we go... again:
"If atheism is a belief, then 'Off' is a TV channel."
A reasonably coherent video in its own terms, but harps on a lot on the same theme about not believing in things. Sorry if you had to play it again, but repetition does not rightness make, righteousness, maybe. As I've said, I have my own definition of atheism and I'm happy with it. It means, to me, if not to you, the state of believing there is no God. Other entities may also need words that describe not to be believed in but most of them - leprechauns, unicorns and tooth fairies - tend to lack the omnipotence that makes a god particularly important. They are hierarchically inferior. If we accept a word that denotes belief in the non-existence of God, the same word cascades its meaning satisfactorily to a full range of subordinate supernatural entities. It seems to me that this tendency to try to say that god is simply something that there is no evidence for, like leprechauns, rather than something that we positively believe does not exist, far from being the denial of a lie as the video asserts, is a serious attempt to demote the concept of god to a level which can be easily ridiculed and treated dismissively, a technique that the self-satisfied sounding chap in the video uses. We atheists engage in this hierarchical game at our peril, much replication of patriarchal authoritarianism quickly follows.
Posts: 1211
Threads: 38
Joined: July 15, 2010
Reputation:
21
RE: Atheism worships a dead god.
August 31, 2010 at 9:55 pm
(This post was last modified: August 31, 2010 at 9:57 pm by TheDarkestOfAngels.)
(August 31, 2010 at 3:50 pm)Existentialist Wrote: A reasonably coherent video in its own terms, but harps on a lot on the same theme about not believing in things. Sorry if you had to play it again, but repetition does not rightness make, righteousness, maybe. As I've said, I have my own definition of atheism and I'm happy with it. It means, to me, if not to you, the state of believing there is no God. People can believe in whatever they want. Just note that your belief regarding atheists is wrong.
(August 31, 2010 at 3:50 pm)Existentialist Wrote: Other entities may also need words that describe not to be believed in but most of them - leprechauns, unicorns and tooth fairies - tend to lack the omnipotence that makes a god particularly important. They are hierarchically inferior. If we accept a word that denotes belief in the non-existence of God, the same word cascades its meaning satisfactorily to a full range of subordinate supernatural entities. It seems to me that this tendency to try to say that god is simply something that there is no evidence for, like leprechauns, rather than something that we positively believe does not exist, far from being the denial of a lie as the video asserts, is a serious attempt to demote the concept of god to a level which can be easily ridiculed and treated dismissively, a technique that the self-satisfied sounding chap in the video uses. We atheists engage in this hierarchical game at our peril, much replication of patriarchal authoritarianism quickly follows.
God is omnipotent in the same way that Superman is strong, batman is smart, and faeries are magical.
You can say that god is as omnipotent, but it doesn't make it any less of an exersize in imagination any more than any of the examples given so far.
If today you can take a thing like evolution and make it a crime to teach in the public schools, tomorrow you can make it a crime to teach it in the private schools and next year you can make it a crime to teach it to the hustings or in the church. At the next session you may ban books and the newspapers...
Ignorance and fanaticism are ever busy and need feeding. Always feeding and gloating for more. Today it is the public school teachers; tomorrow the private. The next day the preachers and the lecturers, the magazines, the books, the newspapers. After a while, Your Honor, it is the setting of man against man and creed against creed until with flying banners and beating drums we are marching backward to the glorious ages of the sixteenth centry when bigots lighted fagots to burn the men who dared to bring any intelligence and enlightenment and culture to the human mind. ~Clarence Darrow, at the Scopes Monkey Trial, 1925
Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first. ~Ronald Reagan
Posts: 7388
Threads: 168
Joined: February 25, 2009
Reputation:
45
RE: Atheism worships a dead god.
August 31, 2010 at 10:16 pm
(This post was last modified: September 1, 2010 at 6:27 am by Oldandeasilyconfused.)
Quote: It means, to me, if not to you, the state of believing there is no God
Of course you may choose to interpret words however you wish. However, the convention here is to accept the basic dictionary definition of atheism as 'a disbelief in gods'.
To say assert "there is is no God" or "I believe there is no God" is to make a positive claim,which attracts the burden of proof. This is not a common position here as no one so far in recorded history has managed to prove or falsify the existence of God,.
I await your falsification of the existence of God with baited breath.
PS: Just a wild thought: do you happen to be a first year undergraduate philosophy student ? 
Posts: 43162
Threads: 720
Joined: September 21, 2008
Reputation:
133
RE: Atheism worships a dead god.
September 1, 2010 at 5:34 am
If there is an extremely small probability that God, indeed, exists.... the tiniest chance that he exists makes no difference to my life in practice, other than the fact I don't go around claiming absolute knowledge of God's non-existence because that would be dishonest for I am an agnostic atheist.
Posts: 647
Threads: 9
Joined: March 3, 2010
Reputation:
14
RE: Atheism worships a dead god.
September 1, 2010 at 6:45 am
Is not believing that God probably doesn't exist a positive claim, though? In this sense, I am both a positive atheist and an agnostic one. It's possible that God exists... I just think it's about as likely as every sperm whale in the world spontaneously transforming into a bowl of petunias (three points to the first person who gets the reference).
'We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.' H.L. Mencken
'False religion' is the ultimate tautology.
'It is just like man's vanity and impertinence to call an animal dumb because it is dumb to his dull perceptions.' Mark Twain
'I care not much for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it.' Abraham Lincoln
Posts: 4807
Threads: 291
Joined: October 29, 2008
Reputation:
35
RE: Atheism worships a dead god.
September 1, 2010 at 7:27 am
(September 1, 2010 at 6:45 am)The Omnissiunt One Wrote: I just think it's about as likely as every sperm whale in the world spontaneously transforming into a bowl of petunias (three points to the first person who gets the reference).
None of us have ever read the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy so we have no clue.
Best regards,
Leo van Miert
Horsepower is how hard you hit the wall --Torque is how far you take the wall with you
Posts: 43162
Threads: 720
Joined: September 21, 2008
Reputation:
133
RE: Atheism worships a dead god.
September 1, 2010 at 7:35 am
Oh, shame.
Posts: 282
Threads: 7
Joined: August 25, 2010
Reputation:
4
RE: Atheism worships a dead god.
September 1, 2010 at 2:45 pm
(This post was last modified: September 1, 2010 at 3:14 pm by Existentialist.)
(September 1, 2010 at 5:34 am)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: If there is an extremely small probability that God, indeed, exists.... the tiniest chance that he exists makes no difference to my life in practice, other than the fact I don't go around claiming absolute knowledge of God's non-existence because that would be dishonest for I am an agnostic atheist.
How can this probability be calculated? It can't. Probability can only be calculated on the basis of observable data - throws of a dice. Or, as GCSE maths books annoyingly state, a die. A god that exists outside the observable universe offers us no data on which to base our predictions. So how could we ever calculate or even estimate the probability of any god's existence as being infinitesimally, or extremely, small? We can't. It's a statement of faith, of belief, of opinion. No calculations have been offered.
(August 31, 2010 at 10:16 pm)padraic Wrote: Of course you may choose to interpret words however you wish. However, the convention here is to accept the basic dictionary definition of atheism as 'a disbelief in gods'.
To say assert "there is is no God" or "I believe there is no God" is to make a positive claim,which attracts the burden of proof. This is not a common position here as no one so far in recorded history has managed to prove or falsify the existence of God,.
I await your falsification of the existence of God with baited breath.
PS: Just a wild thought: do you happen to be a first year undergraduate philosophy student ?
We are all making positive claims here. Some of us admit it, others don't. Thank you for the compliment about my being a first year undergraduate philosophy student. Incidentally, please explain why you are baiting your breath and awaiting some falsification of the existence of God. I never said I could prove anything one way or another, I am merely the proponent of an an existentialist atheist position that doesn't believe the existence or not of god need make any difference to the existentialist position. My totem pole is the rational compatibility of a set of ideas, your totem pole is an unobtainable objectivity affirming the rightness of proof. Mine overall is more pleasing to me at the moment, but I'm always open to persuasion if the logic of another's argument seems sound.
(September 1, 2010 at 6:45 am)The Omnissiunt One Wrote: sperm whale in the world spontaneously transforming into a bowl of petunias (three points to the first person who gets the reference).
You mean three points to the first person who googles "sperm whale" and "bowl of petunias". I think presenting oneself as well-read on this forum depends on keeping a google bookmark handy.
Posts: 647
Threads: 9
Joined: March 3, 2010
Reputation:
14
RE: Atheism worships a dead god.
September 1, 2010 at 4:12 pm
(This post was last modified: September 1, 2010 at 4:14 pm by The Omnissiunt One.)
(September 1, 2010 at 2:45 pm)Existentialist Wrote: How can this probability be calculated? It can't.
Not to any degree of precision, for sure, but we know that it's epistemically very improbable. If I said there was someone called Sue Jones in Boston, that'd be reasonably likely, based on our background knowledge: 'Sue Jones' is a fairly common name in the English language. If I said there was someone one called Sue Jones in Outer Mongolia, that'd be much less likely. If I said someone called Sue Jones had flown with her arms to Outer Mongolia, that'd be very unlikely, as we have no experience of people who can fly. It's possible that she has a different biology, but unlikely. We have never experienced a timeless, omnipotent, disembodied mind - indeed, of all the supernatural things we can think up, it's unlikely we'd think of one which is real- so God is very unlikely a priori.
Quote:Or, as GCSE maths books annoyingly state, a die.
That's the correct singular form. Don't diss GCSE maths books (much as I hated them).
Quote:You mean three points to the first person who googles "sperm whale" and "bowl of petunias". I think presenting oneself as well-read on this forum depends on keeping a google bookmark handy.
I hoped you wouldn't cheat. Perhaps I was being naive. Anyhow, if leo-rcc cheated, he's not getting his prize, which was a free holiday to Spain.
'We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.' H.L. Mencken
'False religion' is the ultimate tautology.
'It is just like man's vanity and impertinence to call an animal dumb because it is dumb to his dull perceptions.' Mark Twain
'I care not much for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it.' Abraham Lincoln
Posts: 282
Threads: 7
Joined: August 25, 2010
Reputation:
4
RE: Atheism worships a dead god.
September 1, 2010 at 5:33 pm
(September 1, 2010 at 4:12 pm)The Omnissiunt One Wrote: We have never experienced a timeless, omnipotent, disembodied mind - indeed, of all the supernatural things we can think up >>> it's unlikely we'd think of one which is real- so God is very unlikely a priori.
">>>" Marks the point where your logic completely breaks down. You were talking about the likelihood of God existing, not the likelihood of us thinking of something.
|
