9-11, give me a break.

[Mudhammam]

The most stupid arguments I heard was the they hate us because we are free one.

And yet that's not even wrong, if by freedom one means freedom of and from religion, the emancipation of women, freedom of speech, etc...

[Arkilogue]

Why does it stick out for you?

Well. our language is German. That's also the narrative our tv went along with and my understanding of the terms also. Folks seems to be the friendler term if you talk about attackers. Much like a cordial reference to a merry bunch of pub dwellers, whereas guys is rather neutral. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the finer distinctions between the words, but that's how I understood it at that time and was rather flabbergasted by Bush using the word.

Ah, makes sense now, thanks =)

---

The most stupid arguments I heard was the they hate us because we are free one.

And yet that's not even wrong, if by freedom one means freedom of and from religion, the emancipation of women, freedom of speech, etc...

Don't forget the freedom to drop explosive death from 20,000 ft and undermine/depose democratically elected leaders of other countries.

[abaris]

And yet that's not even wrong, if by freedom one means freedom of and from religion, the emancipation of women, freedom of speech, etc...

And yet it's a stupid and simplistic one. It prevents looking at the motifs and taking the attackers for fools instead of acknowledging the fact that they have their own kind of reasoning and most of all a strategy. What always went under and what I always pointed out when one of these simplistic arguments came up even back then was Massoud. Massoud had the highest popularity among the Afghani warlords opposing the Taliban. He was murdered, was it two or three days before 9/11. They wanted him out of the way, since they were expecting an imminent attack on Afghani soil. That's not a foolish approach. That's a strategy if there ever was one.

[Arkilogue]

And yet it's a stupid and simplistic one. It prevents looking at the motifs and taking the attackers for fools instead of acknowledging the fact that they have their own kind of reasoning and most of all a strategy.

Exactly. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!

[Cecelia]

You're not standing up to anyone. All you're doing is victim blaming. Sitting up there, claiming the moral high ground over the US Government while making justifications for large scale mass murder of American Civilians. Yeah, that's some high ground there. Right up there with the rape apologists.

[Mudhammam]

And yet it's a stupid and simplistic one. It prevents looking at the motifs and taking the attackers for fools instead of acknowledging the fact that they have their own kind of reasoning and most of all a strategy. What always went under and what I always pointed out when one of these simplistic arguments came up even back then was Massoud. Massoud had the highest popularity among the Afghani warlords opposing the Taliban. He was murdered, was it two or three days before 9/11. They wanted him out of the way, since they were expecting an imminent attack on Afghani soil. That's not a foolish approach. That's a strategy if there ever was one.

A stupid and simplistic response is one that ignores what the Islamists actually claim, how they act upon the statements they make, and blames everything on U.S. foreign policy or Israel, rather than acknowledge that there are a plethora of reasons including legitimate grievances, some that are purely geo-political, others that are purely theological, and of course ones that are a combination of both.  One only has to read the Islamic State's own propaganda, in the article they published to garner further support from English-speaking jihadists, "Why We Hate You and Why We Fight You", to see how "stupid and simplistic" it is to say "they fight us because they hate our way of life, including our freedoms."

1.  We hate you, first and foremost, because you are disbelievers... 2.  We hate you because your secular, liberal societies permit the very things that Allah has prohibited while banning many of the things He has permitted... 3.  In the case of the atheist fringe, we hate you and wage war against you because you disbelieve in the existence of your Lord and Creator...  4. We hate you for your crimes against Islam and wage war against you to punish you for your transgressions against our religion...  5.  We hate you for your crimes against the Muslims; your drones and fighter jets bomb, kill, and maim our people around the world, and your puppets in the usurped lands of the Muslims oppress, torture, and wage war against anyone who calls to the truth... 6.  We hate you for invading our lands and fight you to repel you and drive you out.  

It's not actually until reason #5, per ISIS, that you find justification, in their minds, according to them, that you can place outside of the rationale that you call "stupid and simplistic."  So, if it is stupid and simplistic, they certainly don't view it that way.

It kind of feels like I had just one of these moments: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpIYz8tfGjY

[Regina]

There's no ONE reason why terrorism happens, so I think any attempt to say "they're not terrorists for X reason" is silly.

There are people who genuinely do have a grievance with America, France and The UK for bombing their innocent relatives instead of genuine ISIS members...

Then there are also people who genuinely are in it purely to push a religious agenda. People are flogged, hung, beheaded and thrown off buildings in several countries because they transgress what's seen to be religious divine law, and that has fuck all to do with "Islamophobia" and how The West treats Muslims.

[Seraphina]

9-11, Never Forget?

Here is my spin, and you can hate me all you want for it.

America the great imposes itself on countries that have been around longer than America, and it is surprised when a retaliation happens due to what we are wrongfully doing to other countries; i.e., those unspeakable acts that cannot be disclosed to the public due to national security.
Therefore, I will forget what happened on 9-11.

It does not make me less American. It actually makes me more of an American for having the gumption to stand up to the government.

Well, you're certainly entitled to having your own opinion and I won't fault you for having one.
I don't agree with you though.

Hitch was right: Religion poisons everything.

And you know the saying - Science flies people to the moon; religion flies people into buildings.

The military and political stuff can be debated. But 9/11 is for me yet another reason to turn my back on religion.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but it seems to me we're in agreement, except for this one small point.

I think so. My point is that even in joining the emergency services you're not in for putting your life on the line for the sake of others. At least where I got my training it was rather discouraged to do that. In order to not turn you into a dead hero, and in order to preserve you and your experience to help others.

So, yes, I think by going up the blazing towers, they were heroes. They lost their lives not only in the line of duty but outside of that line. I don't know about your training, but in our corner of the world the usual approach would be to bring the fire under control and then enter to see who could be saved.

And let me add that the term hero is something I rarely use. Only reserved for people who try to save others.

Yeah, we're definitely in agreement. Apologies for my part in the misunderstanding, and thanks for your clarification.

[Losty]

Hey guys look at me, I don't care about 9-11. I'm totally hardcore and extreme. Can you see how cool I am? I can take a horrific tragedy and trivialize the lost lives of fathers mothers and children heartlessly in order to earn extra edge points with my other hardcore and extreme friends. You should respect me for that, gosh darnit!