9-11, give me a break.

[Faith No More]

Ah, yes, the good ol' "the government is super powerful and smart enough to pull off the massacre of thousands on live television without one shred of evidence linking them to it, but they weren't smart enough to make it appear consistent with the laws of physics" argument.  I can see it now...

Government stooge 1:  Okay, bring down tower 7.

Government stooge 2:  But wait, won't people see that the fire wasn't enough to take down the tower?

Government stooge 1:  I doubt anyone will notice.

Government stooge 2:  But it's being filmed on live television.  Won't people notice that it violates the laws of physics?  I mean, we jumped through all these hoops to orchestrate the perfect plan, and this just seems like an extreme oversight.  If we were going to get people to commit suicide to bring the towers down, why didn't we have someone suicide bomb the foundations or something along those lines?

Government stooge 1:  Meh, the only ones smart enough to notice are going to be people like Alex Jones, and who's going to listen to that guy?  He believes aliens are taking over the planet.

Government stooge 2:  Good point.  Bringing down tower 7 now.

[Sterben]

Ah, yes, the good ol' "the government is super powerful and smart enough to pull off the massacre of thousands on live television without one shred of evidence linking them to it, but they weren't smart enough to make it appear consistent with the laws of physics" argument.  I can see it now...

Government stooge 1:  Okay, bring down tower 7.

Government stooge 2:  But wait, won't people see that the fire wasn't enough to take down the tower?

Government stooge 1:  I doubt anyone will notice.

Government stooge 2:  But it's being filmed on live television.  Won't people notice that it violates the laws of physics?  I mean, we jumped through all these hoops to orchestrate the perfect plan, and this just seems like an extreme oversight.  If we were going to get people to commit suicide to bring the towers down, why didn't we have someone suicide bomb the foundations or something along those lines?

Government stooge 1:  Meh, the only ones smart enough to notice are going to be people like Alex Jones, and who's going to listen to that guy?  He believes aliens are taking over the planet.

Government stooge 2:  Good point.  Bringing down tower 7 now.

        I'm in favor of your theory, and it's a shame the wrong people were blamed; no surprise there though. How many times has the wrong country been blamed for something they had no involvement in through out history? Let's just say a lot,(cough) World War One!

[Catholic_Lady]

9-11, Never Forget?

Here is my spin, and you can hate me all you want for it.

America the great imposes itself on countries that have been around longer than America, and it is surprised when a retaliation happens due to what we are wrongfully doing to other countries; i.e., those unspeakable acts that cannot be disclosed to the public due to national security.
Therefore, I will forget what happened on 9-11.

It does not make me less American. It actually makes me more of an American for having the gumption to stand up to the government.

I think 9/11 happened because radical Islam inherently believes everyone who is not a radical muslim should die. I don't think their motives were purely out of some revenge or retaliation. 

And even if it was purely out of revenge, the people they killed in 9/11 were innocent people who had nothing to do with any sort of injustice that was done to the middle east.

[Catholic_Lady]

I think much of the emphasis in remembering 9-11 is in the wrong place.  The civilians who died in the towers, as a whole, were not heroes.  They were just people like the rest of us who were in the wrong place at the wrong time.  It was a tragedy for sure, and should be remembered in that light.  Some of them performed heroic acts, as did many of the responding police and firefighters, and those should be remembered for their heroism.  But another huge reason we should commemorate 9-11 is to keep the need for vigilance and security fresh in our minds.  History can teach us valuable lessons and that's why I believe it's important to commemorate events such at 9-11, Pearl Harbor and D-Day.

As far as the flag waving goes - I've never been an "America, love it or leave it" believer.  I was at a ball game in Oakland on Labor Day, which I have done zillions of times before, but for the first time I thought about how weird it was to be standing there with my hat over my heart, pledging my allegiance to a country.  My allegiance is to God and to what is right.  I've lived in three Asian countries and visited Canada and I happen to think that our country is better than those and, all-in-all, I'm happy and proud to be an American.  I think we've done more good for the world than bad and I will defend this country to death if I believe it's right to do so. There's not many countries in the world that haven't trampled on someone, but at the same time, I won't blindly pledge my allegiance to any country or human institution.

This is a great post, and the second paragraph expresses EXACTLY how I feel. 

I have no problem with patriotism, and even think it's a good thing. I like this country and I'm proud to live here. It isn't perfect, as no place is, but I still think it's a great place to live. I was born in South America and basically my whole extended family still lives there. I started my life and early childhood there, and went back to visit every year while growing up. Needless to say, I am glad I'm here in the US. 

With that all being said, I always have felt a bit strange about the "I pledge allegiance" thing. It almost feels too much like a prayer, which to me, is about God. As you said, my allegiance is to God and to what is right, and if it came down to it, I wouldn't put that aside for the sake of being patriotic.

[abaris]

I think 9/11 happened because radical Islam inherently believes everyone who is not a radical muslim should die. I don't think their motives were purely out of some revenge or retaliation. 

And even if it was purely out of revenge, the people they killed in 9/11 were innocent people who had nothing to do with any sort of injustice that was done to the middle east.

That's why you have to detach yourself emotionally to get a picture of motivations. The victims were innocent, but the buildings being attacked on that day were symbolic. Symbols of economic as well as military power. The alleged third target being the White House. The very seat of power.

So there's never only one motivation involved. And as I said before, there's a lot to mourn, but that shouldn't prevent looking at what the attackers had in mind. It was a clear message of we can hit you on your very soil and where it hurts the most. A lot of planning and preparation went into this. Things a raving fanatic doesn't do. So, I'm aware this sounds callous. But the victims weren't the targets. The symbols were.

Sadly this went under in the ensuing propaganda battle. And sadly that led to a lot of wrong conclusions of how to launch a counter strike. Which had to happen in some way. I'm not denying that. Just not in the way it was done.

Right after the attacks. In the ensuing weeks before the invasion of Afghanistan started, there were a lot of discussions between analysts and - for lack of a better words - pundits. The analysts pointed all of the above out to the public. But it got burried in a shitstorm of you are only defending the terrorists. Which they didn't do. They only asked to take a breather and look at what had happened in detail before jumping to conclusions.

I said it right here and I say it for more than a decade. Right before 9/11 they killed Ahmad Shah Massoud. The most popular and secular warlord opposing the Taliban. So, this certainly wasn't a coincidence. It was part of a bigger strategy expecting an attack on Afghanistan and removing the one person making for a possible leader to rally behind for the Afghani people. Certainly more popular than Hamid Karzai who was always perceived as a puppet and basically became the corrupt mayor of Kabul.

[Silver]

Patriotism is more than just agreeing with being an American.

In fact, true patriotism is disagreeing with how the government conducts itself, with how corrupt the party systems have become, and especially with how corrupt the corporate system is that veritably supports all the other corruption.

[Arkilogue]

Surely America has never committed a false flag attack, or allowed an attack to happen to further military conquering.....oh wait, they have A LOT.

http://911review.com/articles/anon/false...tions.html

[Silver]

You remind me of the NFL. Not important and raising an issue only to make yourself seem more important.

[Arkilogue]

Ah, yes, the good ol' "the government is super powerful and smart enough to pull off the massacre of thousands on live television without one shred of evidence linking them to it, but they weren't smart enough to make it appear consistent with the laws of physics" argument.  I can see it now...

Government stooge 1:  Okay, bring down tower 7.

Government stooge 2:  But wait, won't people see that the fire wasn't enough to take down the tower?

Government stooge 1:  I doubt anyone will notice.

Government stooge 2:  But it's being filmed on live television.  Won't people notice that it violates the laws of physics?  I mean, we jumped through all these hoops to orchestrate the perfect plan, and this just seems like an extreme oversight.  If we were going to get people to commit suicide to bring the towers down, why didn't we have someone suicide bomb the foundations or something along those lines?

Government stooge 1:  Meh, the only ones smart enough to notice are going to be people like Alex Jones, and who's going to listen to that guy?  He believes aliens are taking over the planet.

Government stooge 2:  Good point.  Bringing down tower 7 now.

Your incredulity is adorable!

But your inability to even consider that a government would attack itself to lay false blame and further their military agenda is extremely naive and dangerous, as the they have, repeatedly. You think the second Gulf of Tonkin accident happened? Not according to historians but lord know's everyone was rip roarin to go to war. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/15/world/...4&emc=eta1


I'll make it real simple for you. Fire did not bring the tower down. Proven. The NIST model omits an obscene amount of data. Proven. The NIST's official model shows deformations that did not occur in real life. Proven.

They should be fired for GROSS negligence.

Next are coming the scientific test to determine exactly what did bring down Building 7 and we'll see won't we?

[Silver]

You certainly like to throw around the word "proven" without any linked evidence to support your wild claim.