Acupunture - pseudoscience?

[downbeatplumb]

O.k.
let's say it is year 1825 anno domini, your name is Robert Brown and you are watching a phenomenon that they will later call Brownian motion. You cannot determine the mechanisms that cause this motion. Does it mean that the particles are not moving? Maybe you had too much drink and you are hallucinating?

The placebo effect is well known and powerful and the tests to discount it are understood by science.
Brownian motion was a new thing that was not understood.

What you are doing here is showing the same as theists do for gods. they believe because they want to and try to justify in the face of the facts.

[Aractus]

[brewer]

OP, if you don't mind (if you do, that's ok) can you tell me exactly what condition/diagnosis the acupuncture is treating? And who made the diagnosis?

Also, what other treatment(s) have you tried that have failed?

[Anomalocaris]

[vorlon13]

Most people like attention, and we can be reasonably assured of a positive response to it.

I earlier cited smoking cessation, and I'd square up my take on this a bit by saying if acupuncture is done so as to insure no harm will accrue, and the subject is responding as to a placebo or Hawthorne effect scenario, I'd reserve my ire for stuff done that is actually harmful, like administering bleach to autistics.

I've had a few friends over the years respond positively to acupuncture during smoking cessation efforts. I don't really care if acupuncture is bullshit or not in this usage, smoking is definitely dangerous, and the acupuncture was accomplished with no harm.

[chimp3]

What about the gate control theory of pain. Not exactly the placebo effect. The nervous system can be tricked with non-noxious stimuli into focusing away from true sources of pain. (On my kindle right now, otherwise would provide link)

[brewer]

I stomp on my foot all the time to get rid of a headache.

[Aroura]

[Aroura]

Most people like attention, and we can be reasonably assured of a positive response to it.

I earlier cited smoking cessation, and I'd square up my take on this a bit by saying if acupuncture is done so as to insure no harm will accrue, and the subject is responding as to a placebo or Hawthorne effect scenario, I'd reserve my ire for stuff done that is actually harmful, like administering bleach to autistics.

I've had a few friends over the years respond positively to acupuncture during smoking cessation efforts.  I don't really care if acupuncture is bullshit or not in this usage, smoking is definitely dangerous, and the acupuncture was accomplished with no harm.

I agree.

The problem is that when something like this is given legitimacy, next thing you know, people are bringing their kids in for cancer treatment.

[Aractus]

Evidence does not show acupuncture cures anything.  

However, body of evidence shows acupuncture needles as applied to traditional acupuncture pressure points has some palliative and analgesic effect.  The fact that it doesn't seem to work as well when randomly applied, even on patients who has no idea where acupuncture pressure points are, suggest it is not quite a placebo affect.   It is also not so far fetched, as mere pressure on many of these points also seem to have analgesic effects, something which skilled masseuse takes advantage of.

If it has a real therapeutic effect then it should be observable under test conditions, and repeatable. As mentioned earlier it's based on a belief about disease that is outdated and inconsistent with the germ theory of disease. It's based on disease and infirmity being caused by meridians.