Acupunture - pseudoscience?

[downbeatplumb]

O.k.
let's say it is year 1825 anno domini, your name is Robert Brown and you are watching a phenomenon that they will later call Brownian motion. You cannot determine the mechanisms that cause this motion. Does it mean that the particles are not moving? Maybe you had too much drink and you are hallucinating?

The placebo effect is well known and powerful and the tests to discount it are understood by science.
Brownian motion was a new thing that was not understood.

What you are doing here is showing the same as theists do for gods. they believe because they want to and try to justify in the face of the facts.

[Aractus]

1. What makes you think it is pseudoscience?
2. If it is pseudoscience, how does it help people?

This is my area. Yes it is a pseudomedicine. Just like chiropractic. It's based on a flawed idea about what causes disease.

The four most prominent academic journals in biomedicine are Lancet, BMJ, Journal of the American Medical Association, and New England Journal of Medicine. If there is good evidence for it it will be published in one of those Journals, or in another respected Journal. You can search the PubMed database at your leisure. Better yet, there are 144 Cochrane reviews (well 144 that have been published, some of those will be updated reviews of past reviews) and an overview of them up to Sep 2007 was published here. In the overview you will notice that the vast majority of reviews did not find that acupuncture works, and those that did likely suffered from publication bias.


How does it help people? It doesn't. It provides the placebo effect and that's all. But people still experience the placebo benefits when taking actual evidence-based treatments.

Now I'm not saying that everything that has a "lack of evidence" is not worth consideration. I had to look at Pickle Juice earlier in the year, and whether or not it is suitable to be used an an ergonomic aid in sports. Benefits are that athletes like it, that it's unlikely to cause any harm, and that it's a food so there's no need to get special approval to take it. So until it is shown not to work there's really no reason not to use it if desired, so long as it doesn't impede other treatments. There's a review of evidence for treatment of sports-related muscle cramps here, and I know you can't read the full article but I have and it does say that PJ is a promising treatment that needs further study - and in fact the only treatment option that is shown to work is stretching at this time. The other treatment options like taping and massage therapy have not been shown to work either.

But in the case of acupuncture we know that it doesn't work. It's not that there's not enough evidence - it's that the body of evidence shows it does not cure any illnesses.

[brewer]

OP, if you don't mind (if you do, that's ok) can you tell me exactly what condition/diagnosis the acupuncture is treating? And who made the diagnosis?

Also, what other treatment(s) have you tried that have failed?

[Anomalocaris]

1. What makes you think it is pseudoscience?
2. If it is pseudoscience, how does it help people?

This is my area. Yes it is a pseudomedicine. Just like chiropractic. It's based on a flawed idea about what causes disease.

The four most prominent academic journals in biomedicine are Lancet, BMJ, Journal of the American Medical Association, and New England Journal of Medicine. If there is good evidence for it it will be published in one of those Journals, or in another respected Journal. You can search the PubMed database at your leisure. Better yet, there are 144 Cochrane reviews (well 144 that have been published, some of those will be updated reviews of past reviews) and an overview of them up to Sep 2007 was published here. In the overview you will notice that the vast majority of reviews did not find that acupuncture works, and those that did likely suffered from publication bias.


How does it help people? It doesn't. It provides the placebo effect and that's all. But people still experience the placebo benefits when taking actual evidence-based treatments.

Now I'm not saying that everything that has a "lack of evidence" is not worth consideration. I had to look at Pickle Juice earlier in the year, and whether or not it is suitable to be used an an ergonomic aid in sports. Benefits are that athletes like it, that it's unlikely to cause any harm, and that it's a food so there's no need to get special approval to take it. So until it is shown not to work there's really no reason not to use it if desired, so long as it doesn't impede other treatments. There's a review of evidence for treatment of sports-related muscle cramps here, and I know you can't read the full article but I have and it does say that PJ is a promising treatment that needs further study - and in fact the only treatment option that is shown to work is stretching at this time. The other treatment options like taping and massage therapy have not been shown to work either.

But in the case of acupuncture we know that it doesn't work. It's not that there's not enough evidence - it's that the body of evidence shows it does not cure any illnesses.

Evidence does not show acupuncture cures anything.

However, body of evidence shows acupuncture needles as applied to traditional acupuncture pressure points has some palliative and analgesic effect.  The fact that it doesn't seem to work as well when randomly applied, even on patients who has no idea where acupuncture pressure points are, suggest it is not quite a placebo affect.   It is also not so far fetched, as mere pressure on many of these points also seem to have analgesic effects, something which skilled masseuse takes advantage of.

Also, the pressure points associated acupuncture appears to not have been a unique Chinese or East Asian invention. Otzi, the 5300 year old mummy recovered from an Austrian glacier high in the Alps, has a pattern of tattoos on the body and limbs that match traditional Chinese acupuncture points.  This mummy is far older than the oldest evidence of the practice of acupuncture in china.  

This could mean acupuncture pressure points had been a widespread tradition prevailing throughout pre-bronze age Eurasia, but the tradition had since been lost everywhere except in east Asia.  Widespread tradition doesn't mean it's not bullshit, of course, much as widespread tradition of the constellations doesn't mean the three prominent stars of the Orion is actually the apotheosis of the hunter's belt.

However, alternatively, but not mutually exclusively, the acupuncture points could have been subject to Independent discovery at different locations and different times, something which a true piece of total bullshit is not likely to do.

[vorlon13]

Most people like attention, and we can be reasonably assured of a positive response to it.

I earlier cited smoking cessation, and I'd square up my take on this a bit by saying if acupuncture is done so as to insure no harm will accrue, and the subject is responding as to a placebo or Hawthorne effect scenario, I'd reserve my ire for stuff done that is actually harmful, like administering bleach to autistics.

I've had a few friends over the years respond positively to acupuncture during smoking cessation efforts. I don't really care if acupuncture is bullshit or not in this usage, smoking is definitely dangerous, and the acupuncture was accomplished with no harm.

[chimp3]

What about the gate control theory of pain. Not exactly the placebo effect. The nervous system can be tricked with non-noxious stimuli into focusing away from true sources of pain. (On my kindle right now, otherwise would provide link)

[brewer]

I stomp on my foot all the time to get rid of a headache.

[Aroura]

I feel like the fact that you don't know how it helps people, such that you could just point to that and not have to ask that question, precludes it from being science right off the bat.

Scientists tend to, you know, require an understanding of the mechanism behind what's happening, before they'll accept that something is happening.

O.k.
let's say it is year 1825 anno domini, your name is Robert Brown and you are watching a phenomenon that they will later call Brownian motion. You cannot determine the mechanisms that cause this motion. Does it mean that the particles are not moving? Maybe you had too much drink and you are hallucinating?

You are correct and Esq is wrong on this.  Science does not need to understand the mechanism to accept that it is happening.  It does have to be repeatable, demonstrable, etc, though.
That being said, scientist usually seek the mechanism, and in this case it has been determined that the few people who experience benefits from acupuncture are experiencing Placebo effect.

And the answer to what studies?  Every single respected study.  And many have been done.  Many.

Acupuncture is a Theatrical Placebo

[Aroura]

Most people like attention, and we can be reasonably assured of a positive response to it.

I earlier cited smoking cessation, and I'd square up my take on this a bit by saying if acupuncture is done so as to insure no harm will accrue, and the subject is responding as to a placebo or Hawthorne effect scenario, I'd reserve my ire for stuff done that is actually harmful, like administering bleach to autistics.

I've had a few friends over the years respond positively to acupuncture during smoking cessation efforts.  I don't really care if acupuncture is bullshit or not in this usage, smoking is definitely dangerous, and the acupuncture was accomplished with no harm.

I agree.

The problem is that when something like this is given legitimacy, next thing you know, people are bringing their kids in for cancer treatment.

[Aractus]

Evidence does not show acupuncture cures anything.  

However, body of evidence shows acupuncture needles as applied to traditional acupuncture pressure points has some palliative and analgesic effect.  The fact that it doesn't seem to work as well when randomly applied, even on patients who has no idea where acupuncture pressure points are, suggest it is not quite a placebo affect.   It is also not so far fetched, as mere pressure on many of these points also seem to have analgesic effects, something which skilled masseuse takes advantage of.

If it has a real therapeutic effect then it should be observable under test conditions, and repeatable. As mentioned earlier it's based on a belief about disease that is outdated and inconsistent with the germ theory of disease. It's based on disease and infirmity being caused by meridians.