My atheism religious faith is being shaken...

[The Grand Nudger]

I'm fucking pissed about Trump winning yesterday. I do not get how stupid the media was reporting the polling and basically missing Trump by a mile. I can't believe that the FBI released such a stupid letter that definitely assisted Trump. I can't believe that this human blow horn of shit was able to lie, demagogue, and abuse with his vulgar speech and then avoids shitting on the floor for 1 week before the election and he wins! I want to be clear, this wasn't just me hating Trump. I am enrolling into a state college and Hillary had a plan that would make it debt free for me. I have a homeless meth addicted brother with severe mental illness and Hillary had a plan to combat that. And I could go on.

......what does any of that have to do with god?

Then I remember this prophecy in Daniel chapter 2. Nebuchadnezzar has a dream of an immense statue that is layered with different materials. Daniel interprets the dream to represent the kingdoms of the world that would stand in opposition to Jehovah. At the bottom is feet that are representing the final kingdom. The feet are a mixture of iron and clay. The iron represented the strength of the kingdom and the clay would represent the people, some footnotes further saying "the common people."

ah, the other foot falls.  So, firstly, le me remind you that "prophecy" even as interpreted by JW's has been..shall we say..miss and miss?  

Daniel, like any prophesy, was more social commentary than crystal ball.  Vaticinium ex eventu.   Daniel is to be understood as the consequences, as the author saw it, of events past -even if- prophesied before the fact...which it wasn't.  The OT isn't about american politics.  I'm sure that a person can interpret it, if they so chose, in the -context- of american politics...but that doesn't change any fact, actual or hypothetical, about daniel.

I'm not denying that you can interpret it in a compelling way (which is why there's no reason for me to address the specifics either as they were then or as you see them now), mind you, only reminding you that..if you did...it's you...not "daniel"...and certainly not "god".... doing -that-.

[Won2blv]

I'm fucking pissed about Trump winning yesterday. I do not get how stupid the media was reporting the polling and basically missing Trump by a mile. I can't believe that the FBI released such a stupid letter that definitely assisted Trump. I can't believe that this human blow horn of shit was able to lie, demagogue, and abuse with his vulgar speech and then avoids shitting on the floor for 1 week before the election and he wins! I want to be clear, this wasn't just me hating Trump. I am enrolling into a state college and Hillary had a plan that would make it debt free for me. I have a homeless meth addicted brother with severe mental illness and Hillary had a plan to combat that. And I could go on.

......what does any of that have to do with god?

Then I remember this prophecy in Daniel chapter 2. Nebuchadnezzar has a dream of an immense statue that is layered with different materials. Daniel interprets the dream to represent the kingdoms of the world that would stand in opposition to Jehovah. At the bottom is feet that are representing the final kingdom. The feet are a mixture of iron and clay. The iron represented the strength of the kingdom and the clay would represent the people, some footnotes further saying "the common people."

ah, the other foot falls.  So, firstly, le me remind you that "prophecy" even as interpreted by JW's has been..shall we say..miss and miss?  

Daniel, like any prophesy, was more social commentary than crystal ball.  Vaticinium ex eventu.   Daniel is to be understood as the consequences, as the author saw it, of events past -even if- prophesied before the fact...which it wasn't.  The OT isn't about american politics.  I'm sure that a person can interpret it, if they so chose, in the -context- of american politics...but that doesn't change any fact, actual or hypothetical, about daniel.  

I'm not denying that you can interpret it in a compelling way (which is why there's no reason for me to address the specifics either as they were then or as you see them now), mind you, only reminding you that..if you did...it's you...not "daniel"...and certainly not "god".... doing -that-.

That paragraph had nothing to do with god. Just the fact that Trump is such a roundly unfit human for such and important role in the world.

This is just the basis for why this is troubling me... Trump could literally destroy the worldwide economy, he could start nuclear wars, and he has proposed plans that will seriously undercut americas leverage on the world scene which would allow for other powers like China or Russia to rise in prominence. And when that prophecy is talking about world powers and at the bottom the last world power is going to be strong like iron but mixed with clay that represents the common people, it gets my attention. Its not like it just said that its iron mixed with clay. It specifically calls the clay the common people.

[Whateverist]

There is a prophecy in Daniel chapter 2 and part of it is speaking of a kingdom that was represented  by iron mixed with clay. And the scripture says that it was strength mixed with the common people. Is this nothing other than indoctrination nagging at me? Am I crazy to think that Donald Trump is going destroy Americas economy and place in the worlds power structure? And he only could have been elected by a majority of non-informed common people.

Only if you think that on the basis of some moldering words in an ancient goat herd's collection of jewish folk tales.  May as well consult tea leaves.

[The Grand Nudger]

That paragraph had nothing to do with god. Just the fact that Trump is such a roundly unfit human for such and important role in the world.

This is just the basis for why this is troubling me... Trump could literally destroy the worldwide economy, he could start nuclear wars, and he has proposed plans that will seriously undercut americas leverage on the world scene which would allow for other powers like China or Russia to rise in prominence. And when that prophecy is talking about world powers and at the bottom the last world power is going to be strong like iron but mixed with clay that represents the common people, it gets my attention. Its not like it just said that its iron mixed with clay. It specifically calls the clay the common people.

Well, maybe he could do that and maybe he couldn't..... but none of it has anything to do with the contents of daniel (or a god)...and a reference to iron and clay and the common people is going to be as valid and invalid anywhere and at anytime as it is here, and now.

I mean, it would be alot harder to shrug off if it were a reference to high density plastic and carbon fiber...but it isn't., because the people who wrote that had no idea what either was just like they had no idea wtf an "america" was....so?

[Simon Moon]

So, pardon me if I make a comment on the title of this thread, but it is almost incoherent.


Atheism does not fit any definition of a religion that I know of.

And it takes zero faith to disbelieve claims that have not met their burden of proof.

Carry on.

[Edward John]

Won2blv, 

[Edward John]

JK guys, jk...

I just need help thinking through this latest issue going through my head. I'd appreciate all thoughts but if your response is, "you were just indoctrinated" please know that I already have been considering that...


I'm fucking pissed about Trump winning yesterday. I do not get how stupid the media was reporting the polling and basically missing Trump by a mile. I can't believe that the FBI released such a stupid letter that definitely assisted Trump. I can't believe that this human blow horn of shit was able to lie, demagogue, and abuse with his vulgar speech and then avoids shitting on the floor for 1 week before the election and he wins! I want to be clear, this wasn't just me hating Trump. I am enrolling into a state college and Hillary had a plan that would make it debt free for me. I have a homeless meth addicted brother with severe mental illness and Hillary had a plan to combat that. And I could go on.

Then I remember this prophecy in Daniel chapter 2. Nebuchadnezzar has a dream of an immense statue that is layered with different materials. Daniel interprets the dream to represent the kingdoms of the world that would stand in opposition to Jehovah. At the bottom is feet that are representing the final kingdom. The feet are a mixture of iron and clay. The iron represented the strength of the kingdom and the clay would represent the people, some footnotes further saying "the common people."

After 8 years of the economy being turned from 850k jobs lost a month to millions of added and a deficit cut in half, the nation had the choice of a safe 4 more years of that, or a fucking lunatic. And because Americans are the most conspiratorial citizens of a wealthy nation, they believed his brainwashing garbage. Donald's tax plan will add 10 trillion to the debt, his trade wars will cause a depression, and after the GOP repeals Obamacare an 8 year old with leukemia can get declined for insurance.

And this guys basic argument for why he is qualified is his business success? But for some reason he wouldn't release his tax returns? And the only tax return we did see showed him being for from a billionaire, maybe a negative billionaire ?

The only explanation is the common people were given more power than they could be trusted with. This election could literally shatter the United States position in the world power structure. That prophecy says that in the end the kingdom will be shattered by the kingdom of god. So, Am I just crazy for this issue? I just can't believe how closely that prophecy represents what democracy has turned into. Especially since when it was written, the writer could have no idea of a world where the common people could be expected to wield power of any kind.

Thanks for reading


TL;DR

There is a prophecy in Daniel chapter 2 and part of it is speaking of a kingdom that was represented  by iron mixed with clay. And the scripture says that it was strength mixed with the common people. Is this nothing other than indoctrination nagging at me? Am I crazy to think that Donald Trump is going destroy Americas economy and place in the worlds power structure? And he only could have been elected by a majority of non-informed common people.

Your atheism is shaking, amazing good news!

[Fake Messiah]

Yes great news in this new christian america, because those camps for blacks, gays, non-Christians and women that used contraception won't build themselves but by good Christians, just like in Nazi Germany.

And also don't forget Nostradamus' prophecies because why discriminate one bunch of dumb fucks and their book over the other.

[robvalue]

I agree it is mind melting how we could get to the point where someone like Trump could be voted in; although I hear he didn't actually get the most votes. The stupid (in my opinion) voting system means that you can win while having less votes.

I don't understand what this has to do with the bible, or what point you're getting at there. If you're suggesting the book has the ability to predict the future then I'd say you're mistaken. Sure, you will be able to find similarities between real life and stories if you look hard enough. But even if they are very similar, I'm not sure what we're supposed to take away from that. There's no reason to think any further predictions written in the book will also come true.

I do agree that balancing how much power the individual has against protecting them from their own ignorance is a very tricky one. I don't think the public should have been given a vote on brexit, for example. When it comes to electing officials you have to give people some measure of control at some point, or else you enter a dictatorship. How there aren't protocols to stop people like Trump even becoming candidates, I don't know. Our political system in England is shit, but at least someone like Trump would never be considered even for a second.

I see what you're saying. I guess its just the fact that the interpretation of the prophecy was made clear by the writer of Daniel. He says specifically that the clay represents the common people mixed with iron and that is what makes it weak. We live in unprecedented times where people don't read but they react. Especially so in America.

And be careful what you say. EVERYBODY said that Trump was a joke candidate and NO ONE thought he could win the Republican nomination let alone the presidency. I'll admit that you brits are smart but you still have the lods of emone class

What does it matter how accurate the "prediction" is? If the writer did in fact know something, it doesn't tell us how they knew it, nor does it validate anything else they wrote. It would just be a mystery. The method by which they got the information is a separate claim which needs its own evidence. I don't personally agree that it's anything like detailed enough to be considered a match, but that is of course subjective. Any sufficiently vague prediction, especially one which makes use of human nature, is bound to come true eventually. Unless it's highly specific, including timescale, it's unfalsifiable.

Be careful what I say? I don't know what you're referring to. We Brits are not smart, we're also trying to destroy our own country as we speak.

[Plixin]

My first post on these forums and I must say I am shaking my head and scoffing at these "Sky is Falling" rants from people that I hope are just having a bad day. Trump is the President elect so grow up and get over it already, its rather childish (unless you are a child then disregard). None of the doomsday scenarios that have/are floating around happened and there is .......no evidence.....to support any of the ridiculous and fantastical doomsday scenarios. Remember that thing called evidence?  The path of this thread seems to be much more akin to religious prophecy and portents than a proper atheist discussion weighing evidence. Where is the logic here? Where is the fundamental reasoning processes? If you and others really are "shaken"  simply from a democratic election that didn't go your way then you never really had a solid foundation in logic and reasoning and would like to dwell in fantasy. Shameful masquerading or flip-flop attitude, which one are you or both? The hyperbole in this thread is shocking and hardly worthy of mentioning again if only to slap you down like the prophetic fools several of you are mimicking. After reading more on this site I hope to not find such religious droning from those that claim to be atheist. What a horrible introduction to this Athesist website......the moderators should be taking this trash thread and placing it a different area like "Ranting Without Reason". It doesn't belong in atheist discussion and only fools would think so, unfortunately.