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RE: Atheists, tell me, a Roman Catholic: why should I become an atheist?
December 13, 2016 at 2:36 pm
(December 13, 2016 at 2:24 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (December 13, 2016 at 8:51 am)robvalue Wrote: I love people just fine without having to also love some deity. My love is reserved for real things that I actually interact with in some meaningful way. If I'm interacting with this "God" thing, I'm entirely unaware of it. I have no feelings towards it at all. I have no desire to love everything; nor could I make I myself, even if I wanted to. I hold no ill will against this weird "God" thing, I simply have no fucking idea about it or what it's meant to be doing.
If we have no choice but to love it, then it simply can't exist, because I don't love it. I don't even know what it is.
This also addresses the ideas I've sometimes heard that "if religion X is true then we have no choice but to love God". If that is the case, then the religion is not true, because I do not love God. Pretty simple.
A more simplified version: God is love and goodness. If you love those things, you love God. That is our understanding. 
We already have perfectly good words for the concepts of "love" and "goodness". And those words are....wait for it..."love" and "goodness".
No need to hang all the silly supernatural baggage that goes along with those words. I love those things, yet, not only do I not love "God", I do not believe such a being exists.
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Atheists, tell me, a Roman Catholic: why should I become an atheist?
December 13, 2016 at 2:43 pm
I know you don't believe in it. But questions were being asked about our Christian beliefs, so I was answering.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Atheists, tell me, a Roman Catholic: why should I become an atheist?
December 13, 2016 at 3:30 pm
(December 13, 2016 at 2:43 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I know you don't believe in it. But questions were being asked about our Christian beliefs, so I was answering.
My main point is not whether I believe or not.
It was that you are taking terms ("love" and "goodness"), that already have perfectly complete and coherent meanings, without adding your god beliefs to them.
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Atheists, tell me, a Roman Catholic: why should I become an atheist?
December 13, 2016 at 3:33 pm
Lol, right. But my belief is that those things are very much tied to God. So I was answering the question accordingly. It doesn't make sense for someone to ask me a question about my beliefs and then when I answer, respond with "well, that's not true." I know you don't think it's true.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Atheists, tell me, a Roman Catholic: why should I become an atheist?
December 13, 2016 at 4:48 pm
How do you know what "God" is?
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: Atheists, tell me, a Roman Catholic: why should I become an atheist?
December 13, 2016 at 5:29 pm
(December 13, 2016 at 4:48 pm)Stimbo Wrote: How do you know what "God" is? In a previous conversation she essentially told me that she just takes the Catholic Church's word. So God is whatever the church says God is. If she needs to know more I'm sure they'll tell her what she thinks.
Have you ever noticed all the drug commercials on TV lately? Why is it the side effects never include penile enlargement or super powers?
Side effects may include super powers or enlarged penis which may become permanent with continued use. Stop taking Killatol immediately and consult your doctor if you experience penis enlargement of more than 3 inches, laser vision, superhuman strength, invulnerability, the ability to explode heads with your mind or time travel. Killatoll is not for everyone, especially those who already have convertibles or vehicles of ridiculous size to supplement penis size.
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RE: Atheists, tell me, a Roman Catholic: why should I become an atheist?
December 13, 2016 at 5:37 pm
That's right, I AM Catholic lol. I wouldn't be if I didn't believe in Catholic doctrine.
As for why I'm Catholic, that's a different question.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Atheists, tell me, a Roman Catholic: why should I become an atheist?
December 13, 2016 at 5:53 pm
(This post was last modified: December 13, 2016 at 6:00 pm by robvalue.)
I find it ridiculous that I could love something that is holding my future hostage, pending my obedience of its arbitrary rules. That's Stockholm Syndrome; this has come up a lot. I don't think that would happen to me even with an evident jailor, so it's certainly not happening with an ethereal one that I only find out about second hand. He can fuck off. I don't care whether it's Hell, or nothingness, or whatever. It's clearly a less favorable afterlife for me if I don't do what I'm told. That's blackmail, and I don't love people who try to blackmail me. I tell them to take a hike.
And no, it's not the same as when human X does this and that to human Y. I am so sick of God/human analogies. They are completely flawed because humans lack power, resources and foresight.
God is welcome to come explain all this crap to me, and why he isn't actually a dick. But he doesn't seem interested.
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RE: Atheists, tell me, a Roman Catholic: why should I become an atheist?
December 13, 2016 at 6:01 pm
(December 13, 2016 at 5:37 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: That's right, I AM Catholic lol. I wouldn't be if I didn't believe in Catholic doctrine.
As for why I'm Catholic, that's a different question.
Dare I ask?.... Why are you catholic? Accident of birth?
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RE: Atheists, tell me, a Roman Catholic: why should I become an atheist?
December 13, 2016 at 6:16 pm
I talked about it a little bit in another thread:
(September 21, 2016 at 11:21 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Going back and reading through all these responses, I think IF there is to be any motivation for continuing to believe, I do think Thena got it right that it would be hope. It definitely is not and should NOT be any sort of sole reason for anyone to believe anything... there should still be real points to back up and support any belief. But I can see hope as being a complimentary force that keeps a person believing.
I have a few reasons why I believe what I do and I think I have touched on them a couple of times here before.
For starters, I really do think it is logical to believe there is some sort of supernatural force out there that started all this. Things in the natural world all have a beginning... they all came from/formed from somewhere/something. Nothing in the natural world just magically forms itself from nothing at all, neither can we say it has always existed. Both of those are contrary to the laws of nature as we know them. This supports my idea that whatever it was that has always existed and caused other thing to exist, is of a supernatural force, aka - above nature as we know it. This isn't something I choose to believe. It really does make more sense to me that way.
Of course, none of this is to say that such supernatural force was the Christian God. That specific belief of mine comes from other points. History be one of them. Like the crazy fast spread of early Christianity before we had good transportation, telephones, etc. The lives of the saints serve as witness to me as well, and all the extraordinary things surrounding them and what they did and what happened to them. The many accounts of miracles, particularly the one in Fatima which I find pretty convincing. The fact that we all seem to have some sort of basic, objective, universal moral code about what is good and what is bad.
And to seal the deal (and I have talked about this before), the miracle I experienced with my own senses 10 years ago. Definitely a supernatural occurrence, and one that very much and specifically pointed towards Christianity.
Of course, none of this is any sort of concrete evidence that can be proven in a lab or mathematically, etc. That's where the hope comes in. I can't prove to you concretely or to myself that any of this is true. I can only add up reasons which to me, make it a good possibility that it is all true, and believe and hope that it really is. In the same way, I can't show concrete proof and evidence to anyone that my husband loves me, and there are plenty of people out there who don't believe in that type of life long marital love between 2 people. But I have many things that point to him loving me as being a real possibility, and so I believe and I hope that he does.
Likewise, at the end of the day, us religious folks are people of hope.
I hope that helps shed some light.
I'll also add that Catholic doctrine on faith and morals just make sense to me. Natural Law makes sense to me, and it makes sense to me how that ties in with God's nature.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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