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RE: Theists: would you view the truth?
December 6, 2016 at 10:25 am
(December 5, 2016 at 1:53 pm)robvalue Wrote: I would like a falsifiable hypothesis for how this supposed interaction occurs. I'll happily run the experiment and collate the figures. After they've finished hacking my guts up of course. The Plan is outlined in Luke 11. Do ABC God will give you 123.
Now you can't do AB and1/2 of C and expect the full 123
Quote:If we don't need any of that shit, I'll just say that the Holy Spirit doesn't do anything and doesn't exist. And since I said it last, it's truer.
And if I say the opposite last?
Quote:I wonder why it even needs to interact if it had a plan?
What if the plan is verification and the actual interaction?
Quote: Or was fucking with everything part of the plan? Like, he'd set things up to be all wrong, so he could keep correcting them? Weird guy.
What makes you think anything is wrong?
When I look at this world I see a great sin sifting machine, that gives souls the opportunity to play out a fraction of eternity so that 'we' may know who we are and that God's judgement of us is just and accurate.
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RE: Theists: would you view the truth?
December 6, 2016 at 10:30 am
(December 6, 2016 at 10:23 am)vorlon13 Wrote: You know D, like Jesus being calm and in control on the way to His crucifixion as recorded in Luke versus Jesus being in doubt and despair as recorded in Mark.
I want to see him riding on a colt and a donkey at the same time. I'd love to see that on Jerusalem's Got Talent.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: Theists: would you view the truth?
December 6, 2016 at 11:05 am
(December 6, 2016 at 9:10 am)operator Wrote: (November 28, 2016 at 12:12 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Of course the reverse question also applies... If you went back and witnessed the events as described, would you believe? Interesting how instead of answering the question you turn the question around...Now, please answer the question.
I did answer the question...extensively. Now please read the thread...
http://atheistforums.org/thread-46490-po...pid1459683
http://atheistforums.org/thread-46490-po...pid1460477
http://atheistforums.org/thread-46490-po...pid1461133
In summary, the “events” in question include not just the purported miracle but all the expectations around it and its place within a larger historical narrative. Look, if I peep through a time-space wormhole lens and go back the wedding at Canaan and see Jesus slipping dye and everclear into the wine, then of course I would feel deceived. Any normal thinking person would. Personally, I would probably give up on Jesus and turn to a more abstract neo-Platonic philosophy.
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RE: Theists: would you view the truth?
December 6, 2016 at 1:14 pm
(December 6, 2016 at 10:23 am)vorlon13 Wrote: You know D, like Jesus being calm and in control on the way to His crucifixion as recorded in Luke versus Jesus being in doubt and despair as recorded in Mark.
Which verses in Mark are you referring to? I'm not seeing doubt and despair on the way to the crucifixion.
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RE: Theists: would you view the truth?
December 6, 2016 at 3:42 pm
(This post was last modified: December 6, 2016 at 3:42 pm by AceBoogie.)
(December 6, 2016 at 11:05 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: I did answer the question...extensively. Now please read the thread...
http://atheistforums.org/thread-46490-po...pid1459683
http://atheistforums.org/thread-46490-po...pid1460477
http://atheistforums.org/thread-46490-po...pid1461133
In summary, the “events” in question include not just the purported miracle but all the expectations around it and its place within a larger historical narrative. Look, if I peep through a time-space wormhole lens and go back the wedding at Canaan and see Jesus slipping dye and everclear into the wine, then of course I would feel deceived. Any normal thinking person would. Personally, I would probably give up on Jesus and turn to a more abstract neo-Platonic philosophy.
Interesting how you use the term "normal thinking person" yet you fail to realize that the evidence we have for Jesus' existence is shaky at best. We don't even know if the man was real.
Any normal thinking person would highly doubt the existence of such a man in the first place. Any normal thinking person would question the very bronze age book of bullshit that they base their entire religion off of. Any normal thinking person would apply the same logic and reason they use in every other area of their life to their personal philosophy and beliefs to see how it holds up to the test. I don't doubt that you are, in fact, a "normal thinking person" but you apparently do not use your intellect to make decisions on the matter of religion. Because intellect doesn't apply to religion, right?
Of course only the most staunch theists will admit that nothing could ever change their mind. I hope you're being honest, if not with us, with yourself.
“Love is the only bow on Life’s dark cloud. It is the morning and the evening star. It shines upon the babe, and sheds its radiance on the quiet tomb. It is the mother of art, inspirer of poet, patriot and philosopher.
It is the air and light of every heart – builder of every home, kindler of every fire on every hearth. It was the first to dream of immortality. It fills the world with melody – for music is the voice of love.
Love is the magician, the enchanter, that changes worthless things to Joy, and makes royal kings and queens of common clay. It is the perfume of that wondrous flower, the heart, and without that sacred passion, that divine swoon, we are less than beasts; but with it, earth is heaven, and we are gods.” - Robert. G. Ingersoll
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RE: Theists: would you view the truth?
December 6, 2016 at 11:26 pm
(This post was last modified: December 6, 2016 at 11:31 pm by robvalue.)
(December 6, 2016 at 10:25 am)Drich Wrote: (December 5, 2016 at 1:53 pm)robvalue Wrote: I would like a falsifiable hypothesis for how this supposed interaction occurs. I'll happily run the experiment and collate the figures. After they've finished hacking my guts up of course. The Plan is outlined in Luke 11. Do ABC God will give you 123.
Now you can't do AB and1/2 of C and expect the full 123
Quote:If we don't need any of that shit, I'll just say that the Holy Spirit doesn't do anything and doesn't exist. And since I said it last, it's truer.
And if I say the opposite last?
Quote:I wonder why it even needs to interact if it had a plan?
What if the plan is verification and the actual interaction?
Quote: Or was fucking with everything part of the plan? Like, he'd set things up to be all wrong, so he could keep correcting them? Weird guy.
What makes you think anything is wrong?
When I look at this world I see a great sin sifting machine, that gives souls the opportunity to play out a fraction of eternity so that 'we' may know who we are and that God's judgement of us is just and accurate.
So if I do ABC and God doesn't give me 123, then that is good evidence God doesn't exist?
I didn't understand the rest of what you said very much.
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RE: Theists: would you view the truth?
December 8, 2016 at 11:36 am
(December 6, 2016 at 1:14 pm)alpha male Wrote: (December 6, 2016 at 10:23 am)vorlon13 Wrote: You know D, like Jesus being calm and in control on the way to His crucifixion as recorded in Luke versus Jesus being in doubt and despair as recorded in Mark.
Which verses in Mark are you referring to? I'm not seeing doubt and despair on the way to the crucifixion.
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RE: Theists: would you view the truth?
December 8, 2016 at 12:39 pm
(December 6, 2016 at 3:42 pm)operator Wrote: (December 6, 2016 at 11:05 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: I did answer the question...extensively. Now please read the thread...
http://atheistforums.org/thread-46490-po...pid1459683
http://atheistforums.org/thread-46490-po...pid1460477
http://atheistforums.org/thread-46490-po...pid1461133
In summary, the “events” in question include not just the purported miracle but all the expectations around it and its place within a larger historical narrative. Look, if I peep through a time-space wormhole lens and go back the wedding at Canaan and see Jesus slipping dye and everclear into the wine, then of course I would feel deceived. Any normal thinking person would. Personally, I would probably give up on Jesus and turn to a more abstract neo-Platonic philosophy.
Interesting how you use the term "normal thinking person" yet you fail to realize that the evidence we have for Jesus' existence is shaky at best. We don't even know if the man was real.
Any normal thinking person would highly doubt the existence of such a man in the first place. Any normal thinking person would question the very bronze age book of bullshit that they base their entire religion off of. Any normal thinking person would apply the same logic and reason they use in every other area of their life to their personal philosophy and beliefs to see how it holds up to the test. I don't doubt that you are, in fact, a "normal thinking person" but you apparently do not use your intellect to make decisions on the matter of religion. Because intellect doesn't apply to religion, right?
Of course only the most staunch theists will admit that nothing could ever change their mind. I hope you're being honest, if not with us, with yourself.
No normal thinking person would have Church of Satan in their signature line.
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RE: Theists: would you view the truth?
December 8, 2016 at 5:10 pm
(December 8, 2016 at 12:39 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: No normal thinking person would have Church of Satan in their signature line.
I think you would find that many normal thinking folks would agree with the philosophy of Satanism if they were truly well informed on the topic. On the contrary, most folks here have informed themselves on the philosophies of Christianity and other religions; that is often how people become atheists. I think you will also find that, maybe very unlike yourself, most Christians do not truly examine their own views or beliefs and that is why very normal thinking people continue to believe in very abnormal, bizarre things.
“Love is the only bow on Life’s dark cloud. It is the morning and the evening star. It shines upon the babe, and sheds its radiance on the quiet tomb. It is the mother of art, inspirer of poet, patriot and philosopher.
It is the air and light of every heart – builder of every home, kindler of every fire on every hearth. It was the first to dream of immortality. It fills the world with melody – for music is the voice of love.
Love is the magician, the enchanter, that changes worthless things to Joy, and makes royal kings and queens of common clay. It is the perfume of that wondrous flower, the heart, and without that sacred passion, that divine swoon, we are less than beasts; but with it, earth is heaven, and we are gods.” - Robert. G. Ingersoll
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RE: Theists: would you view the truth?
December 12, 2016 at 12:32 am
Mark's crucifixion highlights:
just before His arrest, Jesus was greatly disturbed and distressed
Jesus tells his disciples His soul is terribly grieved even unto death
Jesus betrayed by one follower, denied by another, all his companions have fled
He is sent off to be crucified and is silent the entire way, while being nailed to the cross, and while hanging
The crowds around Him are raucous, mocking and jeering, including the Jewish leaders and the 2 thieves also
At the very end Jesus cries out "My God, why have you forsaken me?
And Luke's take on it:
during Jesus arrest, he stops to heal the severed ear of the high priests slave
Jesus tells the 'Daughters of Jerusalem' "Do not weep for me but weep for yourselves, and for your children"
While being nailed to the cross, Jesus prays for those carrying out his crucifixion
He is mocked by one thief, but that thief is rebuked by the other, and Jesus tells that one he will be in paradise with Him
Jesus last words "father into your hands I commend my spirit"
condensed from Lost Gospel of Judas Iscariot/Ehrman
The granting of a pardon is an imputation of guilt, and the acceptance a confession of it.
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