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Who was "he" talking to?
RE: Who was "he" talking to?
(January 18, 2017 at 4:54 pm)Godschild Wrote:  We see the Bible totally different, you believe it's influenced by other religions and secular thinking, I know it to be the word of God himself.

GC

Perhaps people see it that way because it was influenced by other religions and secular thinking? That's regardless of whether or not it's the "word of god himself"..a silly and irrelevant proposition. Obviously, feel free to believe that it's the word of god if you wish, but if that's the case then god must have been a big fan of ANE mythologies and hellenic philosophy. Additionally, what could be attributed to human error in the text in any factual appraisal of it's origins, becomes an issue of your super duper awesome god not knowing his own shit in your fanciful understanding of it's origins. / shrugs.
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RE: Who was "he" talking to?
(January 19, 2017 at 7:50 am)Tonus Wrote:
(January 17, 2017 at 6:52 pm)Godschild Wrote:



When I say denomination I mean that the major religions are all fragmented into many smaller groups.  They share many basic beliefs but differ in others, and some of those disagreements are sufficient to cause enmity and even bloodshed between them.  And in this, Christianity is just like the rest.  As for God being unchanging, the Yahweh of the old testament is a very different god from the Jesus of the new.  Then again, "unchanging" is another of those words that can be defined, interpreted, and applied as needed to 'prove' the point to each believer's satisfaction.

The God of the OT and the God of the NT are the one and same. When God said He was unchanging He meant from the beginning of time and forever. Christ said He was the alpha and the omega, meaning He has always been and will always be, never ending and never changing. Christ, the Father and Holy Spirit are the God of the OT one and the same.

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Tonus Wrote:See, this is what I mean.  You can't explain how someone does this, otherwise you might not have a way out if I say that I took those steps.  No matter how I would explain my experiences as a believer you will insist that somewhere I took a misstep or failed to follow the formula.  You need this in order to sustain your belief structure, but I don't.  To you, this is evidence that your beliefs are true.  To me, it's clear that they're not because you need to invent a scenario for me in order to support your view.

I did explain it you've chosen to ignore what I said.
I haven't questioned you, I said, "if you were seeking," then presented the statement from that prospective. I do not need to defend a formula because the Bible gives no formula. John 3:16 makes it quite clear what has to happen, the rest of the NT tells us the results of accepting John 3:16 as truth. God made the sacrifice and He did all the work to give us a chance at being redeemed to Him, He doesn't force us nor make us jump through hoops, He only says to believe. Then all one has to do is trust ie. have faith He will change us according to what the scriptures say. Once this happens you can see you're a walking miracle.I do not have to tell you you did it right or you did it wrong, the Bible tells us the results of coming to belief in Christ. I do not need you or anyone else to sustain and/or support my as you call it belief system, what I believe, have faith in and know comes from God and that is truly all I need to support my belief.

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Tonus Wrote:That doesn't address what I said.  Think about how impressive you believe god to be, and how you would feel if you were allowed in his presence.  How powerful he would be, how wise, how intelligent, how loving.  Do you think that you could ever turn your back on him?  After all, you are possessed of the same self that those others were, and you say the self is deceptive and not all-knowing.  If they could do it, you could do it.  If you cannot possibly do it, then they could not possibly have done it.

I already know these things to an extent and I want reject God, I have rejected what He has said many times it's called sin. Adam and Eve rejected what He said and they brought sin into the world because they sinned, they did not reject God himself. Satan has not rejected God, he believes in Him, he has rejected everything God says and refused to accept Him as his LORD. Satan convinced a third of the angels to reject God's word and not accept Him as their LORD yet they still believe He is God. They understand His unlimited power, they see His beauty, His holiness and all that He is, they fear Him as we see in the story of the man in the cemetery and the swine. Yes they've seen more of God than we have and they let self pride then blind them just as many people do today and did in the past. It is because we have not stood in His very presence that we have a chance at redemption and they do not.

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Tonus Wrote:They understood that turning their backs on him meant death.  They rejected what god offered on pain of death, ergo they rejected him.

If they (Adam and Eve) rejected Him they would not be in heaven and I have no doubts, they will be there. They rejected what He asked of them and they regretted the choice as soon as their eyes were opened to the knowledge of good and evil. They were tempted and fell into that temptation, Satan and the angels were not tempted, they willfully in their knowledge of God rejected His authority over them and went to war against Him because they wanted His seat of power. Instead they are going to get their seat set ablaze and completely destroyed.

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Tonus Wrote:I'm going to assume you don't have specific examples, then?

The whole of Sodom and Gemorrah, Judas and all those who were destroyed by the flood. A few examples.

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Tonus Wrote:No religion has a majority of the population on its side.  Many religious people will dismiss others as not being "true" members of their faith when it is convenient.  So it seems that if there was a god the best he is able to do is convince a small percentage to find salvation.  This flies in the face of any claim that he wishes for everyone to be saved.  Nothing is impossible for god except doing the one thing that would show how loving he claims to be.

I was referring to the atheist rejection of God and the hundreds of millions of Christians. The other religions are not my concern in this part of the discussion. I should have explained my thought better, sorry. He shows His love for you in many ways, you refuse to recognize them. Your life for starters, not forcing you to accept Him or what He did through Jesus, He could turn you into a little robot but, you would find ways to complain about that, no doubt.

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Tonus Wrote:Yahweh is jealous, angry, violent, vengeful, petty, a poor planner... the list goes on.  Many Christians don't deny his flaws.  They prefer to justify them by placing him on a level of his own where his flaws aren't flaws because he transcends laws and morals.  But put a human in that role and he would be history's greatest villain.  His status as an invented deity is partly shown by his specialty-- he is Jehovah, God of Armies.  He is originally a war god, part of a pantheon of gods.  Otherwise we must accept that one of the descriptors that he gave to himself was the personification of war itself.  A very different god than the one that personifies love in the new testament.

God doesn't deny HE is jealous, that He gets angry or that vengeance is His. He's not a poor planner, petty nor violent, those are things you assume about Him that are not true, God's providence gives Him rights we do not have. A person who calls God flawed doesn't believe in Him thus has no salvation and thus is not a Christian. John 3:16 tells us we must believe He is who He says He is. Tell me how is God to transcend who He is when He is perfect, God is completely moral and who He is is the law, He is the righteous God. He can't transcend His own perfect self. That's not logical, it's delusional thinking. That whole primes is an atheistic made up lie.
He is the God of an army of angels as we understand what armies are. What you want to believe about Him coming out of other religions is your choice but, it is a wrong one. I know I can't convenience you of that because you have bought into the lies of those who have deceived themselves and blinded themselves from the truth. Selfish men seek not the truth but rely on their own faulty reasoning. Love is who God is and He can't be less, He is unchanging so He was Love in the OT the same as the NT and He is today and forever.

We can go on like this until one of us leaves this forum or dies, as for my part you will never change my mind and as for your mind and heart that's for God to do, all He requires of me is to wittnes. I enjoy our conversation and I thank you for the civility you have shown. If you want this to continue please reply, I'm not sure when I will answer the screen bothers my eyes and I may take a few days off after tomorrow.

GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: Who was "he" talking to?
Quote:I know for a fact that God exists and that there are no other gods.

No.  You desperately want to believe in such childish shit and waste your life telling yourself its true over and over.  Its a shame but lots of religitards waste their lives and you are not important enough to worry about.
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RE: Who was "he" talking to?
(January 12, 2017 at 5:42 am)Tazzycorn Wrote:
(January 11, 2017 at 2:24 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: Now let me explain what it says in the bible, it says he lost his power by her cutting his hair.

But also, the whole story is just stupid, I am struggling to understand how a grown person can even for a second find it convincing.


Isnt satan working for god as his jailor!
Isnt it supposed to be an angel who sends people to hell!

The whole Satan rebelling against god thing is an invention of later christianity, largely popularised by people like John Milton (which is ironic given his hardline protestantism, sola scriptura and all that). Hell, or its equivalent isn't mentioned in the OT (in fact the jewish equivalent of hell, Gehenna, was likely invented in response to the christian version) so there's nowhere for Satan to rule. And if you look at the gospels, everything he does to Jesus is what yhwh tells him to do.

The Samson and Delilah story is used to illustrate the 2nd Commandment in Exodus 34:14-16.  When Delilah cut off Samson's hair it represents the break between the Israelites and their deity and the pain and suffering they endured as a consequence. Over time the Israelites' restored their bond with their deity and regained their strength and vanquished their enemies.  That's a theme that's repeated countless times throughout the  biblical fairy tale.  

All of the biblical stories are designed to illustrate the Ten Commandments and the consequences of breaking them.
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RE: Who was "he" talking to?
(January 20, 2017 at 4:11 am)Godschild Wrote: The God of the OT and the God of the NT are the one and same. When God said He was unchanging He meant from the beginning of time and forever. Christ said He was the alpha and the omega, meaning He has always been and will always be, never ending and never changing. Christ, the Father and Holy Spirit are the God of the OT one and the same.

They're not the same to the Jews.  They're not even the same to many Christian denominations (Jehovah's Witnesses, for example) that teach that they're two separate people and that the Holy Spirit is not a person at all.  And there are many passages that can be used to advance those ideas.  This is what I mean about the divergence between religions and even within religions.

Quote:He doesn't force us nor make us jump through hoops, He only says to believe. Then all one has to do is trust ie. have faith He will change us according to what the scriptures say.

This is an example of the saying that "when you believe, then you will see."  God doesn't need anything from us in order to reveal himself.  He hides in spite of knowing that keeping humanity in the dark will cost many of them the chance at heaven, to say nothing of the awful things they do to one another in the meantime (and sometimes in his name).  Due to his vast power, he cannot be doing it out of cowardice.  If he is not imaginary then he is capricious and cruel.

Quote:I already know these things to an extent and I want reject God, I have rejected what He has said many times it's called sin.
But sin is part of a condition visited upon humanity.  You don't reject god by sinning any more than you rejected your parents when you disobeyed them.  To reject them would mean turning your back and walking away from them, wanting nothing more to do with them.  That is how Adam and Eve (and Satan, etc) rejected god.  They did not simply stumble and decide not to accept correction.  They willfully defied god and turned away from him.

Quote:The whole of Sodom and Gemorrah, Judas and all those who were destroyed by the flood. A few examples.
Surely Judas knew that betraying Jesus meant his death, didn't he?  If he knew for certain that Jesus was God and that he offered salvation from suffering and death, he understood that he was damning himself by his action.  Otherwise, we must believe that after three years of following God around and watching and hearing him, he nonetheless thought it a good idea to hand him over to his enemies.  What would drive a person to such an act in light of what he must have known?

Quote:I was referring to the atheist rejection of God and the hundreds of millions of Christians. The other religions are not my concern in this part of the discussion. I should have explained my thought better, sorry. He shows His love for you in many ways, you refuse to recognize them. Your life for starters, not forcing you to accept Him or what He did through Jesus, He could turn you into a little robot but, you would find ways to complain about that, no doubt.
I would need to believe that God existed in order to reject him.  I find the claims and arguments for his existence unconvincing once I decided to challenge my presuppositions.  For God to be real I would need to acknowledge more than just the ways he shows love.  I would need to acknowledge that he allows suffering, that he sometimes inflicted it himself, and that he threatens to inflict it for an eternity to a great many people.  I understand that the response will be to shift the blame, but that doesn't make the argument more compelling in light of the qualities that God possesses.  I'd like for there to be a God --and for that God to be loving and kind and caring-- because I think that'd be amazing and wonderful.  But as the song goes, we can't always get what we want.

Quote:Tell me how is God to transcend who He is when He is perfect, God is completely moral and who He is is the law, He is the righteous God. He can't transcend His own perfect self. That's not logical, it's delusional thinking. That whole primes is an atheistic made up lie.
I can only judge God by the standards that we use to judge behavior.  If we put him above such considerations then he becomes unpredictable because his actions lack motive and context in the way that ours do.  If I decide to kick a child in the head without cause or warning, it's easy to judge that I've done something bad.  If God decided to take the same action, he has done something good because he is god and any analysis is thrown out.  Why would you assume that an eternity with such a being would not have moments of terror?  You assume he will only do 'good' things, but everything he does is good.  You will say that arbitrarily harming others is against his nature, but his nature is such that arbitrarily harming others is good.  This concept of God --that his actions can only be good because he transcends human morals-- should scare those who believe in him.

Quote:We can go on like this until one of us leaves this forum or dies, as for my part you will never change my mind and as for your mind and heart that's for God to do, all He requires of me is to wittnes. I enjoy our conversation and I thank you for the civility you have shown. If you want this to continue please reply, I'm not sure when I will answer the screen bothers my eyes and I may take a few days off after tomorrow.
No problem, GC.  As always, my interest is in what others believe and why they believe it.  I am not concerned with changing your mind, you seem like a good and decent person and that strikes me as the most important qualities to have.  I tend to check the forums every other day now because I'm busy, so there's no need to rush to respond.  Take care!
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."

-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: Who was "he" talking to?
(January 21, 2017 at 10:29 am)Tonus Wrote:
(January 20, 2017 at 4:11 am)Godschild Wrote: The God of the OT and the God of the NT are the one and same. When God said He was unchanging He meant from the beginning of time and forever. Christ said He was the alpha and the omega, meaning He has always been and will always be, never ending and never changing. Christ, the Father and Holy Spirit are the God of the OT one and the same.

They're not the same to the Jews.  They're not even the same to many Christian denominations (Jehovah's Witnesses, for example) that teach that they're two separate people and that the Holy Spirit is not a person at all.  And there are many passages that can be used to advance those ideas.  This is what I mean about the divergence between religions and even within religions.

Quote:He doesn't force us nor make us jump through hoops, He only says to believe. Then all one has to do is trust ie. have faith He will change us according to what the scriptures say.

This is an example of the saying that "when you believe, then you will see."  God doesn't need anything from us in order to reveal himself.  He hides in spite of knowing that keeping humanity in the dark will cost many of them the chance at heaven, to say nothing of the awful things they do to one another in the meantime (and sometimes in his name).  Due to his vast power, he cannot be doing it out of cowardice.  If he is not imaginary then he is capricious and cruel.

Quote:I already know these things to an extent and I want reject God, I have rejected what He has said many times it's called sin.
But sin is part of a condition visited upon humanity.  You don't reject god by sinning any more than you rejected your parents when you disobeyed them.  To reject them would mean turning your back and walking away from them, wanting nothing more to do with them.  That is how Adam and Eve (and Satan, etc) rejected god.  They did not simply stumble and decide not to accept correction.  They willfully defied god and turned away from him.

Quote:The whole of Sodom and Gemorrah, Judas and all those who were destroyed by the flood. A few examples.
Surely Judas knew that betraying Jesus meant his death, didn't he?  If he knew for certain that Jesus was God and that he offered salvation from suffering and death, he understood that he was damning himself by his action.  Otherwise, we must believe that after three years of following God around and watching and hearing him, he nonetheless thought it a good idea to hand him over to his enemies.  What would drive a person to such an act in light of what he must have known?

Quote:I was referring to the atheist rejection of God and the hundreds of millions of Christians. The other religions are not my concern in this part of the discussion. I should have explained my thought better, sorry. He shows His love for you in many ways, you refuse to recognize them. Your life for starters, not forcing you to accept Him or what He did through Jesus, He could turn you into a little robot but, you would find ways to complain about that, no doubt.
I would need to believe that God existed in order to reject him.  I find the claims and arguments for his existence unconvincing once I decided to challenge my presuppositions.  For God to be real I would need to acknowledge more than just the ways he shows love.  I would need to acknowledge that he allows suffering, that he sometimes inflicted it himself, and that he threatens to inflict it for an eternity to a great many people.  I understand that the response will be to shift the blame, but that doesn't make the argument more compelling in light of the qualities that God possesses.  I'd like for there to be a God --and for that God to be loving and kind and caring-- because I think that'd be amazing and wonderful.  But as the song goes, we can't always get what we want.

Quote:Tell me how is God to transcend who He is when He is perfect, God is completely moral and who He is is the law, He is the righteous God. He can't transcend His own perfect self. That's not logical, it's delusional thinking. That whole primes is an atheistic made up lie.
I can only judge God by the standards that we use to judge behavior.  If we put him above such considerations then he becomes unpredictable because his actions lack motive and context in the way that ours do.  If I decide to kick a child in the head without cause or warning, it's easy to judge that I've done something bad.  If God decided to take the same action, he has done something good because he is god and any analysis is thrown out.  Why would you assume that an eternity with such a being would not have moments of terror?  You assume he will only do 'good' things, but everything he does is good.  You will say that arbitrarily harming others is against his nature, but his nature is such that arbitrarily harming others is good.  This concept of God --that his actions can only be good because he transcends human morals-- should scare those who believe in him.

Quote:We can go on like this until one of us leaves this forum or dies, as for my part you will never change my mind and as for your mind and heart that's for God to do, all He requires of me is to wittnes. I enjoy our conversation and I thank you for the civility you have shown. If you want this to continue please reply, I'm not sure when I will answer the screen bothers my eyes and I may take a few days off after tomorrow.
No problem, GC.  As always, my interest is in what others believe and why they believe it.  I am not concerned with changing your mind, you seem like a good and decent person and that strikes me as the most important qualities to have.  I tend to check the forums every other day now because I'm busy, so there's no need to rush to respond.  Take care!

Jesus was always flapping his jaws about how he could call fire down from heaven and how he could summon up thousands of angels in an instant so Judas wanted to put him to the test.  And when Jesus couldn't, or wouldn't, do those things to save his hide Judas realized that he had been lied to for the past three years.  He then decided to kill himself for being a fool.  He thought he would be better off dead than alive and having to listen to more lies.
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RE: Who was "he" talking to?
(January 21, 2017 at 10:29 am)Tonus Wrote:
(January 20, 2017 at 4:11 am)Godschild Wrote:


They're not the same to the Jews.  They're not even the same to many Christian denominations (Jehovah's Witnesses, for example) that teach that they're two separate people and that the Holy Spirit is not a person at all.  And there are many passages that can be used to advance those ideas.  This is what I mean about the divergence between religions and even within religions.

The Israelites of the OT believed in the coming messiah.
The Jehovah's Witnesses is not many denominations. This group of people have retranslated the King James Bible to suit there own needs, the translation is called the NWT, New World Translation. This group is told by the Watchtower Society they are not to interpret the Bible for themselves, they are to avoid independent thinking and are to never question the Watchtower counseling. This denomination was started by one man who was Charles Russell, he had no theological training he was disbelieving of traditional biblical teachings. Joined in with the Adventist Church for a while left them and started the Watchtower Society that in 1931 became the Jehovah's Witnesses Church. Russell and Rutherford made bold predictions about the end times that did not come true. Russell was shown as a perjurer in a court of law because he couldn't read the Greek alphabet as he claimed he could. This church and it's leaders are a long way from being reliable. So you have the Advertise and JW's churches that see God the Father, God the Son and Holy Spirit differently than all the other denominations. Most every denomination considers both to be cults. There are no verses that can advance the ideas that either of these churches hold about the Trinity.

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Tonus Wrote:This is an example of the saying that "when you believe, then you will see."  God doesn't need anything from us in order to reveal himself.  He hides in spite of knowing that keeping humanity in the dark will cost many of them the chance at heaven, to say nothing of the awful things they do to one another in the meantime (and sometimes in his name).  Due to his vast power, he cannot be doing it out of cowardice.  If he is not imaginary then he is capricious and cruel.

First off you've made this statement on other occasions and yet haven't given any biblical proof or proof of any kind that there is any truth to this statement.
If you were to seriously study the Bible you would see that faith and belief must come first, this is God's desire. God does not hide himself, He is there for anyone who seriously is searching for Him. God states that it is His desire that no one be lost but, it is up to each person to make that choice, God want force it. If it were God's ultimate will that all would be save it would happen, however that is not what the Bible teaches, if it did there would be no reason for hell eternal.
You are right about one thing you said, "God doesn't need anything from us to reveal himself." God has said look at My creation and you can see My work and know that I Am.

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Tonus Wrote:But sin is part of a condition visited upon humanity.  You don't reject god by sinning any more than you rejected your parents when you disobeyed them.

That is what I said in an earlier post and I said it because you were saying the opposite. An example of this is when you said Adam and Eve rejected God by sinning.


Tonus Wrote: To reject them would mean turning your back and walking away from them, wanting nothing more to do with them.  That is how Adam and Eve (and Satan, etc) rejected god.  They did not simply stumble and decide not to accept correction.  They willfully defied god and turned away from him.

You're right it takes a willful act of rejection and never returning to God and this is what Satan and the fallen angels did. Adam and Eve did not do this, the evidence for this is God's seeking them out after they had sinned against Him. He knew what they had done, yet He called out to them as a parent to a child, wanting them to come out of hiding and face Him. He made them cloths to hide their nakedness, this is the first deaths that occurred in God's creation. God himself had to take the lives of the animals it took to make their clothes, the first blood split because of sin God had to do it and He also personally split the last blood for sin. Ironic, no it was the plan that had to be because of sin. You really think God would have done this for them if they were going to reject Him, no and why blood had paid for their sin, now you know why there was a requirement of blood for sin and why it's referred to as the covering. You might not see this as a story of the beauty and heart of our loving God but, I do. This story is why the whole Bible has to be true.
By the way the Bible never says Adam and Eve willfully turned away from God forever, that's something you have either been taught or made up yourself.

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Tonus Wrote:Surely Judas knew that betraying Jesus meant his death, didn't he?  If he knew for certain that Jesus was God and that he offered salvation from suffering and death, he understood that he was damning himself by his action.

Do you really believe Judas would have turned on Jesus if he knew these things, why for thirty pieces of silver, sale his soul, sale eternal life no man in his right mind would trade all that for a mere thirty pieces of silver. This is what I believe about Judas from discussions with other Christians. Judas either decided that Jesus wasn't who He was claiming to be even though he saw the miracles and, believed he would be better off with what he could get, the Bible tells us that Judas was keeping the money they had and stole from that moneies. This is what I personally believe, Judas was like most all the Jewish people, he believed the coming messiah was going to destroy Israel's enemies and set them free forever but, he saw in Jesus a man of peace and compassion someone not capable of or wanting to destroy anyone. So Judas turned Him in to try and force Jesus to do what the Jews believed was His purpose and he would get thirty pieces of silver to boot. When Jesus was forgiving of what Judas had done he saw the true messiah and couldn't live with what he had done. So Judas saw he in his betrayal of Jesus that he had rejected the true God and there was no hope for him. This for me is one of the saddest moments in the scriptures.

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Tonus Wrote:I would need to believe that God existed in order to reject him.  I find the claims and arguments for his existence unconvincing once I decided to challenge my presuppositions.  For God to be real I would need to acknowledge more than just the ways he shows love.  I would need to acknowledge that he allows suffering, that he sometimes inflicted it himself, and that he threatens to inflict it for an eternity to a great many people.  I understand that the response will be to shift the blame, but that doesn't make the argument more compelling in light of the qualities that God possesses.  I'd like for there to be a God --and for that God to be loving and kind and caring-- because I think that'd be amazing and wonderful.  But as the song goes, we can't always get what we want.

How can you say those things without coming to know God. When one comes to believe, God will reveal the most wonderful being, himself! He will give you the understanding you need, He will show you the truth of who He really is, you want have to rely on your own false perceptions or what others tell you, be they Christian or otherwise. I could explain to some degree why God allows many things that seem distasteful to us but, I'm sure you've heard many of them and besides who better to help you understand than God himself, the omniscient One.

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Tonus Wrote:I can only judge God by the standards that we use to judge behavior.  If we put him above such considerations then he becomes unpredictable because his actions lack motive and context in the way that ours do.  If I decide to kick a child in the head without cause or warning, it's easy to judge that I've done something bad.  If God decided to take the same action, he has done something good because he is god and any analysis is thrown out.  Why would you assume that an eternity with such a being would not have moments of terror?  You assume he will only do 'good' things, but everything he does is good.  You will say that arbitrarily harming others is against his nature, but his nature is such that arbitrarily harming others is good.  This concept of God --that his actions can only be good because he transcends human morals-- should scare those who believe in him.

God is above our judgment, as I have quoted from the Bible before, what right has the clay to tell the potter what it should be. What right has the vessel to say to the potter why would you treat me so. The answer is an obvious one, none.
I do not assume that heaven will be anything other than the most awesome and peaceful place to live, I k own it will be because it is promised and God has been truthful with me always. I do not have to doubt, God has never given me reason to doubt.
You say it would be good to know a loving God but, how can you if you are going to always stand in judgment of Him. You can't find something you are judging, it takes all your time to criticize Him for who He isn't and refuse to allow Him to show you who He is.

Quote:


Tonus Wrote:No problem, GC.  As always, my interest is in what others believe and why they believe it.  I am not concerned with changing your mind, you seem like a good and decent person and that strikes me as the most important qualities to have.  I tend to check the forums every other day now because I'm busy, so there's no need to rush to respond.  Take care!

I thank you for your opinion of me and I see you as a person concerned about good, respect and decency. I like the good conversation we can have because of your respect, it's people like you that make me feel like part of the community,thanks. It,s been hard on my eyes today I've tried to respond to all the post I can, I turned down the brightness of the screen to see if that will help. Hopefully so.

GC
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RE: Who was "he" talking to?
(January 24, 2017 at 5:15 am)Godschild Wrote: The Israelites of the OT believed in the coming messiah.
But they don't believe that Jesus was it, and therefore do not recognize him as god.

Quote:The Jehovah's Witnesses is not many denominations.
They are one of many.  And although they have modified the Bible for their own convenience, the reason they and other denominations claim that Jesus is not god is because there are sufficient verses in the NT to support the claim.  Possibly even more than support the reverse.  This is one of the problems with the Bible, that it leaves many details open to interpretations that are sometimes contradictory and quite important.

Quote:First off you've made this statement on other occasions and yet haven't given any biblical proof or proof of any kind that there is any truth to this statement.
I'm not sure which statement you are referring to.  I say that God hides because he does not reveal himself plainly, as the Bible claims he did in the past.  There is no reason to think that he is prevented from doing so, therefore I can only assume that he is concealing himself.  If he were to reveal himself it would not force my decision, it would inform my decision.  Why would God leave out such a crucial piece of information when my eternal soul depended on my choice?

Quote:That is what I said in an earlier post and I said it because you were saying the opposite. An example of this is when you said Adam and Eve rejected God by sinning.
Adam and Eve were not bound by sin; they were perfect.  The only rule that God gives them is not to eat from a specific tree.  The fruit does not appear to have been poisonous and its only effect was to give them more knowledge, so the rule was designed to show their acceptance of God as their sovereign.  Instead, they decided to follow the suggestion of a lowly snake over the command of God.  Hence, they rejected him.  He was no longer their God-- the serpent was.

Quote:You're right it takes a willful act of rejection and never returning to God and this is what Satan and the fallen angels did. Adam and Eve did not do this, the evidence for this is God's seeking them out after they had sinned against Him. He knew what they had done, yet He called out to them as a parent to a child, wanting them to come out of hiding and face Him. He made them cloths to hide their nakedness, this is the first deaths that occurred in God's creation. God himself had to take the lives of the animals it took to make their clothes, the first blood split because of sin God had to do it and He also personally split the last blood for sin. Ironic, no it was the plan that had to be because of sin. You really think God would have done this for them if they were going to reject Him, no and why blood had paid for their sin, now you know why there was a requirement of blood for sin and why it's referred to as the covering. You might not see this as a story of the beauty and heart of our loving God but, I do. This story is why the whole Bible has to be true.
I see it as a moral fable, or multiple moral fables mashed into one.  We can see the effects of Adam and Eve's rejection of God in two ways-- he curses them and removes them from the garden and into a life that will be painful and difficult, and he does not remove their death sentence.  His other actions are more human than godlike and open up some other questions, such as why nudity was such an issue that even God decided he had to kill animals to provide them with loin coverings.

Quote:By the way the Bible never says Adam and Eve willfully turned away from God forever, that's something you have either been taught or made up yourself.
It's not difficult to reason it out, as I've been doing.  He gave them a rule with very dire consequences, and they broke it deliberately.  I see that as a rejection of God.

Quote:Do you really believe Judas would have turned on Jesus if he knew these things,
I think your explanation is pretty good, but let's assume that Judas felt that Jesus was not the messiah and decided to betray him for this reason.  We still have three years of witnessing Jesus perform miracles and give talks that left crowds awestruck.  Judas either saw or heard of Jesus resurrecting the dead, healing the blind, feeding multitudes with a few fish and loaves, turning water to wine, and so on.  He either saw or heard of the time that Jesus read the thoughts of the Pharisees and healed a paralytic man!  Why did it apparently take the events of Jesus' crucifixion to finally open his eyes?  It's one of the stranger things in the Bible, that a man who saw and experienced the things he did nonetheless sold out Jesus.  How many people do you know that would spend three years with Jesus and not be absolutely convinced that he was God?

Quote:How can you say those things without coming to know God. When one comes to believe, God will reveal the most wonderful being, himself! He will give you the understanding you need, He will show you the truth of who He really is, you want have to rely on your own false perceptions or what others tell you, be they Christian or otherwise. I could explain to some degree why God allows many things that seem distasteful to us but, I'm sure you've heard many of them and besides who better to help you understand than God himself, the omniscient One.
I 'knew God' in the manner you described for many years, and knew many people who also did.  To know God in this manner is to put aside any reasoning or thoughts that might cast doubt on his existence.  And that never made sense to me, even as a worshipper of God.  How can anyone not know God?  How can reason or logic not lead us straight to God?  Yet so many theists that I knew felt that 'to think for yourself' was dangerous and might lead away from God.  The only way this is possible is if God does not exist.

Quote:God is above our judgment, as I have quoted from the Bible before, what right has the clay to tell the potter what it should be. What right has the vessel to say to the potter why would you treat me so. The answer is an obvious one, none.
What this proves is that God is above our judgment due to his power.  God is absolute power and thus can do as he pleases and we have no recourse but to accept it.  That is different from claiming that all he does is good, but it works out in the same way.  But to recognize this is to recognize the scary part of it, which I mentioned before.

Quote:I do not assume that heaven will be anything other than the most awesome and peaceful place to live, I k own it will be because it is promised and God has been truthful with me always. I do not have to doubt, God has never given me reason to doubt.
You say it would be good to know a loving God but, how can you if you are going to always stand in judgment of Him. You can't find something you are judging, it takes all your time to criticize Him for who He isn't and refuse to allow Him to show you who He is.
A righteous, just, and loving God would invite judgment; he would have nothing to fear from it.  A God that follows the moral precepts that he gives to us would be easier to trust than one who does as he pleases and expects me to accept that under the threat of eternal pain.  God is not bound by our morals and laws, so he could decide to make heaven less than awesome and we would be helpless to do anything about it.  Not only that, if we even thought that his actions were questionable he might send us to hell.  You trust that God will act a certain way, but God's nature means he is not limited in any way-- he would still be 'good' if he did things that you don't expect him to do.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."

-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: Who was "he" talking to?
[quote='Tonus' pid='1487367' dateline='1484477949']

I haven't forgotten about our conversation nor am I avoiding it, it takes a while to answer all the things you bring up and the light from the screen bothers my eyes still. I'm answering only the short post to me because I can do that fairly quickly. I'm going to try and answer your post tomorrow sometime.

GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
Reply
RE: Who was "he" talking to?
(January 25, 2017 at 8:01 am)Tonus Wrote:
(January 24, 2017 at 5:15 am)Godschild Wrote: The Israelites of the OT believed in the coming messiah.
But they don't believe that Jesus was it, and therefore do not recognize him as god.

I think you mean not all of them, there are many Jewish Christians.

Quote:


Tonus Wrote:They are one of many.  And although they have modified the Bible for their own convenience, the reason they and other denominations claim that Jesus is not god is because there are sufficient verses in the NT to support the claim.  Possibly even more than support the reverse.  This is one of the problems with the Bible, that it leaves many details open to interpretations that are sometimes contradictory and quite important.

They had to modify the Bible so they could say Jesus isn't Jesus. There only two denominations that do not believe Jesus is not God. I noticed you did not supply any of the many verses you say are in the Bible that shows Jesus sin't God. I'll give you a reference that will put an end to the nonsense that Jesus is not God, John 1:1-5.

Quote:


Tonus Wrote:I'm not sure which statement you are referring to.  I say that God hides because he does not reveal himself plainly, as the Bible claims he did in the past.  There is no reason to think that he is prevented from doing so, therefore I can only assume that he is concealing himself.  If he were to reveal himself it would not force my decision, it would inform my decision.  Why would God leave out such a crucial piece of information when my eternal soul depended on my choice?

In the past (ie before Jesus) only a few chosen people had direct access to God and only a chosen few ever received the Holy Spirit. The every day Israelis never saw God, heard from God or experienced the Holy Spirit.Actually no one has ever seen God, God revealed himself through His prophets.
Then God revealed himself in the person of Jesus and once Jesus ascended into heaven the Holy Spirit was sent to convict and show people who God is. God now works with us individually, God says He will reveal himself through knowledge to those who truly seek and accept Jesus. You can't fool God, He knows that no matter what He did those who do not want Him will make every excuse they can. An omnipresent being knows all the excuses that will be.

Quote:


Tonus Wrote:Adam and Eve were not bound by sin; they were perfect.  The only rule that God gives them is not to eat from a specific tree.  The fruit does not appear to have been poisonous and its only effect was to give them more knowledge, so the rule was designed to show their acceptance of God as their sovereign.  Instead, they decided to follow the suggestion of a lowly snake over the command of God.  Hence, they rejected him.  He was no longer their God-- the serpent was.

They disobeyed God, He never abandoned them, on the contrary He saved them from their sin. Satan wasn't their god, though he wished he could be. He had a fatal flaw he could not create anything except lies. Disobedience is not total rejection, I disobey God yet I haven't rejected Him, I would think this is quite evident by my comments on this forum, disobedience is sin, rejection is disbelief
Quote:


Tonus Wrote:I see it as a moral fable, or multiple moral fables mashed into one.  We can see the effects of Adam and Eve's rejection of God in two ways-- he curses them and removes them from the garden and into a life that will be painful and difficult, and he does not remove their death sentence.

How do you think you could ever find God when you reject the very beginning of His book. Adam and Eve knew the punishment for their disobedience and for God not to carry out His providential judgment would be for Him to deny His providence, justice, who He is. The sinful couple could not be allowed to reach the Tree of Life, that would have doomed them to live in sin for eternity, this is what hell is, God saved them from this torment.

Tonus Wrote:why nudity was such an issue that even God decided he had to kill animals to provide them with loin coverings.

They had obtained the knowledge of good and evil, nudity would have invited them and others to sin sexually, if God had left them in that state it could have been considered as God leading them into temptation. It was a necessity, thus blood split because of sin.

Quote:


Tonus Wrote:It's not difficult to reason it out, as I've been doing.  He gave them a rule with very dire consequences, and they broke it deliberately.  I see that as a rejection of God.

They rejected his authority, not quite as severe but, when someone speeds on the highway you have rejected the speed limit law but not the law as a whole.

Quote:


Tonus Wrote:I think your explanation is pretty good, but let's assume that Judas felt that Jesus was not the messiah and decided to betray him for this reason.  We still have three years of witnessing Jesus perform miracles and give talks that left crowds awestruck.  Judas either saw or heard of Jesus resurrecting the dead, healing the blind, feeding multitudes with a few fish and loaves, turning water to wine, and so on.  He either saw or heard of the time that Jesus read the thoughts of the Pharisees and healed a paralytic man!  Why did it apparently take the events of Jesus' crucifixion to finally open his eyes?  It's one of the stranger things in the Bible, that a man who saw and experienced the things he did nonetheless sold out Jesus.  How many people do you know that would spend three years with Jesus and not be absolutely convinced that he was God?

I can't say you, but many on this forum would make every excuse they could. Many of the Jews rejected who Jesus was and especially the religious leaders, Jesus said this himself, "you have seen yet you reject what your eyes have shown you."

Quote:


Tonus Wrote:I 'knew God' in the manner you described for many years, and knew many people who also did.  To know God in this manner is to put aside any reasoning or thoughts that might cast doubt on his existence.  And that never made sense to me, even as a worshipper of God.  How can anyone not know God?  How can reason or logic not lead us straight to God?  Yet so many theists that I knew felt that 'to think for yourself' was dangerous and might lead away from God.  The only way this is possible is if God does not exist.

I do not know who taught you you couldn't think for yourself as a Christian, that is ridiculous it's how we can come to know God in a deeper relationship. I know many Christians who would agree with me, they are strong Christians. To many weak Christians have control of the churches and want to keep control, why, because they do not want God or anyone else to push them aside. Pharisees and Sadduces come to mind. Many of the young Christians I talk with have a better grasp on what being a Christian means, they are strong biblical Christians that seek God's truth through the Bible. God does exist, He is mans only hope.

Quote:


Tonus Wrote:What this proves is that God is above our judgment due to his power.  God is absolute power and thus can do as he pleases and we have no recourse but to accept it.  That is different from claiming that all he does is good, but it works out in the same way.  But to recognize this is to recognize the scary part of it, which I mentioned before.

What you described is God's providence and His love, justice, mercy, grace and ect. are all part of that providence. God is creator He is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent this in itself is enough for Him not to be judged. If God was this terrible being people here want to make Him out to be, He could and would make life hell for all people all the time but, that is not who He is. Don't you think if God was as arrogant as some say He is that He would reveal himself to the suffering of all people. God has all that power yet chose to give His Son so that man could be redeemed into the relationship Adam had with God before sin. God has chosen to work through man, even to the point of His Son becoming man. With all that power we still have the choice, I call that love.

Quote:


Tonus Wrote:A righteous, just, and loving God would invite judgment; he would have nothing to fear from it.  

You left out perfect, perfection has no judge, it can't be improved on, this is more than reasonable, it's absolute truth. God being perfect can't have a legitimate judge, thus He by default is the ultimate judge.

Tonus Wrote:A God that follows the moral precepts that he gives to us would be easier to trust than one who does as he pleases and expects me to accept that under the threat of eternal pain.

Rejecting His Son will get people the eternal punishment. God is our morals our morals come from who God is.

Tonus Wrote: God is not bound by our morals and laws, so he could decide to make heaven less than awesome and we would be helpless to do anything about it.  Not only that, if we even thought that his actions were questionable he might send us to hell.  You trust that God will act a certain way, but God's nature means he is not limited in any way-- he would still be 'good' if he did things that you don't expect him to do.

Our moral laws come from who God is and God must be who He is because He does not lie. Thus being truthful He must create the eternal life He promised.
God can send believers to hell it would be against who He is, you're trying to bring an impossibility into a reality. God can do many unexpected things because we do not know Him completely, but He can't go against who He says He is, He would then be a liar and that is impossible. All that you have stated in this last quoted section is nothing but excuses, why not give them up and look for the truth.
Talk to you next week if you decide to continue.

GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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