Play "Cards Against Atheist Forums" online now!
Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: 27th April 2017, 03:10

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Moral Acts
#51
RE: Moral Acts
(11th January 2017, 10:43)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: I'll take that as a no.

That's what I was trying to get across.
I am John Cena's hip-hop album.
Reply
#52
RE: Moral Acts
(11th January 2017, 10:34)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:
(11th January 2017, 09:51)Alasdair Ham Wrote: Unnecessary assumption and non-sequitur.

Humans have the capacity to think because of evolution. Not because of some dude in the sky.

Ever hear of Darwin's Doubt?

So I'm guessing you were just being completely irrelevant then, Neo.
I have moderately large male genitalia. Stop visualizing it.
Reply
#53
RE: Moral Acts
Chimp, when you said "we observe morality in nature," it sounded like you were referring to objective morality, otherwise known as Natural Law (definition: a body of unchanging moral principles regarded as a basis for all human conduct, an observable law relating to natural phenomena). 

...In which case, I would agree with you that morality comes from natural law, not necessarily religion. Religion, now and throughout history, just kind of organizes it, explores/explains why things are wrong/right, and then presents it officially. 

But regardless of religion or culture, there seems to be a universal consensus on what is wrong and what is right, at least for the big things.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly." 

-walsh
Reply
#54
RE: Moral Acts
We observe kindness in nature.

Smile
I have moderately large male genitalia. Stop visualizing it.
Reply
#55
RE: Moral Acts
Darwin’s Doubt refers to a quote at the end of The Origin of Species in which he expresses a lack of confidence in the reliability of human mind if it is only an instinctual adaptation and not in some way teleological, i.e. directed towards fundamental truths and not those that are merely expedient. To paraphrase, how can we trust our convictions any more than we would those of a monkey?

But getting back to my original, and admittedly snarky, comment. The common principles to which proponents of purely secular morality appeal cannot be just a legacy of evolutionary pressures, despite assertions to the contrary. They have been coopted by atheist s from religion – principles such as human dignity, personal autonomy, and equality of value.

Secularists talk about the Golden & Silver Rules. Those only work by privileging empathy over other evolved instincts such as jealousy, xenophobia, and status seeking. Alternatively if we adhere to those “rules” for practical reasons, like being kind so that others return the favor, there will be times when being cruel could be more advantageous.

Personal autonomy? In non-industrial economies slavery can be easily justified. For such a society to thrive, someone has to do the innumerable shit jobs and historically the incentives have been brute force and exploitation. It is not an accident that slavery was abolished first in Christian nations in which some fervent believers came to the realization that slavery was incompatible with the special revelation that all humans were created in the image of God.

If you ground your morality in the survival and flourishing of the human species, then human dignity and equality go by the wayside. By that metric the life of a fertile 14-year old girl is more valuable than 50-year old woman. The life of the king has more value than the serf’s.

For that matter, Nature places no value on human life. The Universe could give a care. Any value people assign to human life is self-serving. What purely secular principle justifies moral obligations to other sentient species?

This is not to say that moral principles cannot be at least partly grounded in observations of Nature, i.e. Natural Law. However, doing so requires recognition of normative qualities based on a transcendent idea of “The Good” tied to an essential human nature. Both concepts are foreign to ontological naturalism.

My point is that today’s secular society now takes beliefs in equality, personal autonomy, and human dignity for granted because men and women of faith worked tirelessly to ingrain them into our culture. Give credit where credit is due, my friends.
Reply
#56
RE: Moral Acts
I'm facepalming so hard right now. Make a new thread about it.
I have moderately large male genitalia. Stop visualizing it.
Reply
#57
RE: Moral Acts
(11th January 2017, 13:39)Alasdair Ham Wrote: I'm facepalming so hard right now. Make a new thread about it.

Bring it on. Would you be interested in a formal debate?
Reply
#58
RE: Moral Acts
Men and women do the work, faith gets the credit, lol.  You clearly can't see past the big god shaped void in your own essential human nature, judging by some of that shit above regarding morality, it's origin, and it's justification.

Angel

On the advantageous nature of cruelty. That seems to be what alot of people in prison thought, before they were imprisoned.

On your easy "justification" for slavery. That's force and intimidation, might makes right garbage, not a justification. The menial shit gets done now too, without anyone being a slave, in case you didn't notice.

On surviving and fluorishing...by -what- metric? That the younger girl seems more fuckable, to you? I mean honestly, Chad.........lol? Something tells me grannies help us survive and flourish too...but in a pinch, we do have a tendency to prioritize the young. It's not something we'd base a law on, but the fireman will probably try to save the baby first, eh?

On the value of life. Does it matter whether or not the universe cares? We care. Is that not enough, not enough for whom, for what?
 “I can’t even go to a goddamn potluck without having to thank some space fairy for the broccoli casserole!” -Trae Crowder


Reply
#59
RE: Moral Acts
Evolutionary theory explains why people are "moral", as in why they care about other members of the species. No magical ingredients, invention or discovery needed. Religion has just tried to take credit for that which isn't well understood, and increasingly, that which is well understood. And of course, morality began well before religion was ever invented.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.

Index of useful threads and discussions
Index of my best videos
Quickstart guide to the forum
Reply
#60
RE: Moral Acts
One of the double standards I have seen here among some (not all) members is that they're quick to blame a person's religious belief for the bad things they do. But when religious people do good things, motivated by their religious beliefs, religion all of the sudden has 0 to do with it.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly." 

-walsh
Reply


Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  On Moral Authorities FallentoReason 266 5608 21st November 2016, 00:54
Last Post: theologian
  Your moral compass mcolafson 58 1896 11th October 2016, 06:39
Last Post: robvalue
  Moral realism vs moral anti-realism debate is a moot point Pizza 1 557 7th March 2015, 20:13
Last Post: CapnAwesome
  Moral law in Humans and other animals The Reality Salesman 13 1498 28th February 2015, 01:32
Last Post: The Reality Salesman
  Why 'should' atheists be moral? vincent150 119 8622 4th January 2015, 13:13
Last Post: CapnAwesome
  Moral Dilemma EgoRaptor 98 9093 20th February 2014, 18:22
Last Post: FlyingNarwhal
  Moral Principles: 10 Myths Rahul 8 1791 14th February 2014, 00:20
Last Post: bennyboy
  Not Convinced Determinism Makes Sense of Moral Responsibility. Convince Me It Does Mudhammam 44 5663 17th December 2013, 00:47
Last Post: MindForgedManacle
  Moral Argument for God's Existence MindForgedManacle 34 6248 25th October 2013, 09:47
Last Post: bennyboy
  Can anyone give me a example of how religous moral is superior to secular morality Lemonvariable72 29 5234 9th September 2013, 12:44
Last Post: MindForgedManacle



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)