I am about to ask a serious but utterly reprehensible question

[The Grand Nudger]

And that is why no one religious, or otherwise has any say in another man's salvation, or lack thereof. No one but the person, and God.

Perhaps you should take this last line, and all the rest, up with mother church?

At first, it was fun to watch people desperately try to wriggle out of their own religious convictions......now it's just sad. Is there no bit of ignorance or flat out deceit that's too far in the name of apologizing for christianity?

[Astonished]

I had been fairly sure that if indoctrination were to be completely halted, theism would die out in a generation, but now I'm not so optimistic. Still, even a 75% success rate would be massively instrumental in saving the world. Or if the shift were to reverse the proportion of believers to nonbelievers as it stands now, which I think is slightly less than that.

While I am no fan of any end-religion movement, I have to admit I'd like to see atheism become the numerical majority just to short circuit the tendency of religious groups to try to make secular society over in their own dated image.

Hey, if the believers become so marginalized we literally never have to hear a word about it, I'm fucking fine with that. I just don't think that's possible even with a major numerical switcheroo.

---

Belief is not a choice. And you just said I wouldn't be punished for not believing. But I will, because of the reason I stated. It's an inevitable conclusion.

Anyhow, I could never love something that is ordering me to love it "or else". That is a monster.

Well..... an observation, questions and a hypothetical @ you.

You say there isn't a god.

If you don't believe in God, why do you call Him a monster? Because of what others tell you about God? Or because you know that for a fact?

Do you Love Life? Do you Love your fellow man? Do you consider yourself honest, caring loving person? Would you stop to help someone you know is in trouble, or help them in some way? These are just generalizations.

What "IF" answering [yes] to all of these questions meant you were doing God's will, and in His good graces. Can you accept that as a possibility? And IF not, why?

Well, first, in response to your previous post, you make the wrongheaded assumption that there is any 'good' in the text that the text is absolutely essential for. This is not so and it is provable. Further, you make the wrongheaded assumption that you can simply dismiss the negative in favor of the positive and this is also not so unless you are willing to admit you are being willfully deceitful and/or pretty intellectually lazy. Trying to bald-face it like you're doing comes across as moronic or naive at best. I've said this analogy over and over, but trying to find the good in religion is like taking the harshest, most side-effect ridden medication imaginable to treat whatever it is you're suffering from (though religion is likely what causes you to imagine this condition or others), while the secular humanists are taking the safest, least-risky and better-success-rate medicine, even though you have equal access to both things. That you're choosing the one over the other is saddening in the extreme.

And I'm so glad you decided to phrase your next line of questioning the way you did, makes it nice and simple.

God is a monster because of what is written about him in his biography. What that story does psychologically to any tricked into believing in it. That there is never a finger lifted or a word spoken to correct any of these alleged mistakes or misunderstandings and the fact that every significant advancement in history has been man-made and almost always in opposition to what those books or the popular doctrines at the time have to say. If all we have to go on is divine hiddenness, 'god works in mysterious ways' and people lying about having the word of said god(s), and no gods care to knock this bullshit off, that alone, that unforgivable apathy, THAT makes any and all gods into the image of a fucking monster. THAT I know for a fact.

Do I love life? No. I have never regarded life as a gift so to say I should be grateful to your god for it is to say will likely get a response akin to you and your god should both go and do something sexually abusive to a pig.

Do I love my fellow man? A select few, but in general I could be considered something of a misanthrope and I'm fairly sure you can tell why by now. If the vast majority of the world wasn't actively engaging in psychological self-deception which leads them to behaviors and decisions that harm others and destroy the world just a little bit more each day, maybe I'd feel differently.

Do I consider myself an honest, caring, loving person? Yes to the first two, no to the third. I'm not sure I'm even fully capable of grasping that concept because of all the disparate definitions bandied about. Least of all the love of this deity who drowns babies, loves the smell of burning human flesh and tortures people just to show someone who already knows full well how big his dick is (thank you, late great George Carlin, for that one). And I'm caring up to a point. When you make it impossible to do so by showing how willfully dishonest you are, it's pretty easy to just stop and write you off as hopeless. Already found half a dozen of you on here. You know who you are. That kind of person, yeah, I give it the old college try to help them out of their delusional state, and it just never takes as far as I have tried. If I try to help a person out in a situation that has nothing to do with faith, I get a sense of elation. I've never really felt like I belong anywhere so my guess is that makes me feel important, needed, like I do belong, even if that's only momentary and false. Nothing godly about that.

And finally, even if I had said yes to all of those, what the fuck makes you think any of that has anything to do with any god's will? Do you have anything other than a badly mistranslated copy of a moldy old document written by slave-owning barbarians to pretend is the word of a god? We're more likely to think that someone like the Westboro Baptists are doing the will of god if you really read that fucking book. So of course we can't accept that as even a remote possibility, and we're lucky we have evolved beyond the need for this god and its backward morality. Leave that shit back in the stone age where it belongs and should never again have seen the light of day. Even if you presented absolutely proof that a deity existed, that such a horrific, demonic entity was really out there would be the worst possible scenario for any human being alive, the true believers included. Nobody wins in this scenario. The fact that it's absurd in the highest degree should make us glad, including yourself and other adherents.

So? Got any hard evidence to back up any claims or is it going to be all anecdotal or philosophical word scramble? I've heard it all, and no matter how you think you've got it figured, you really don't. Guaranteed.

[Whateverist]

How you doing, flatfoot? Long time, no see.

Belief is not a choice. And you just said I wouldn't be punished for not believing. But I will, because of the reason I stated. It's an inevitable conclusion.

Anyhow, I could never love something that is ordering me to love it "or else". That is a monster.

Well..... an observation, questions and a hypothetical @ you.

You say there isn't a god.

If you don't believe in God, why do you call Him a monster? Because of what others tell you about God? Or because you know that for a fact?

Silly, it's on account of the tales in the bible. Is there any truth in it at all? If so then "monster" seems pretty fitting.

Do you Love Life? Do you Love your fellow man? Do you consider yourself honest, caring loving person? Would you stop to help someone you know is in trouble, or help them in some way? These are just generalizations.

What "IF" answering [yes] to all of these questions meant you were doing God's will, ..

What if whether you answer yes, no or maybe you are still doing god's will? One moment you say we're damned because of our 'decision' not to believe of our own free will. The next: it's all god's will. You do see this, right?

.. and in His good graces. Can you accept that as a possibility? And IF not, why?

The only reasonable answer is who the heck cares? Remember, the first thing Rob said -and I agree- is that he does't believe in any model of god, not even yours. But you want to assure us we're in your secret friend's good graces? Pfft, why should anyone care?

[ronedee]

So? Got any hard evidence to back up any claims or is it going to be all anecdotal or philosophical word scramble? I've heard it all, and no matter how you think you've got it figured, you really don't. Guaranteed.

No.... no hard evidence for you!

I'll try to sort through all those adjectives to answer some of your concerns...

I didn't address your subject matter (hell & related) because many vehicles are used to enslave the masses. 
I thought you cared about the child in your terrifying tale . But after witnessing your revealing testimony, 
I realized the kid was just a prop. It was more about you.

Also, you are confusing me with someone who cares..... about your salvation! Or anyone else's for
that matter. No sherlock, I'm here for you to talk me down from my religion. Its been 6 years around 
this boneyard, and nothin' yet. No one. And while I'm here, I may as well add some fuel, so to speak. 
Of course there are my brothers in Christ I will support and defend. So, those are my motives. Nothing else.

As for you? I would say you've created a nice little scenario for yourself in your op.... minus the "prop" of
course. You see, I don't spend a nanosecond thinking about hell. No profit in it. At least not for me.
I'll leave it to you and the fundies to whip up into frenzy of nonsensical hyperbole. Hell doesn't exist
for me. It may be there, It may not. I don't really care. I spend my time thinking more heavenly thoughts.

The question of God always comes down to "hard evidence". But actually the real issue is "acceptance" of Him.
Now that I have your attention.... wait a minute before you scramble to write more adjectives .... 
I'll "prove" my point!

IF God revealed Himself to you, would you pay Him homage? Would you bow down before your creator,
and Love Him? Smile and "accept" Him, and His Love?

uh.... Let me guess here. No.

You see, that is what it really comes down to. "I will not serve." And like most anti's you are your God.
And the only scenario that is real for you is the place you've created in your mind.... minus the "prop"
of course. Because there is "nothing" out there. No Thing. That is what you look for. And that is what you find.

Its actually kind of sad, and ironic that the men that you say fooled us with "dusty old pages", have fooled you too!
The search didn't stop for me. For you? that was enough evidence to condemn everything about the existence of God.

Scripture for me, is a treasure map. Not the treasure. A map is loaded with many things. And people can read it
many ways. The road is never easy. There are many obstacles, and pit falls. There may even be some dead ends
and exaggerations. But the treasure is real. Because the map is there. And using it has taken me further than I could 
imagine possible. So, I will follow it to the end. Mostly, because of my faith. And secondly? Its better than "No Thing".

[Silver]

Oh, dear, Goddess, the Ron is back.

And as full of shit as ever.

---

Mostly, because of my faith. And secondly? Its better than "No Thing".

Atheism is more than nothing and certainly incomparable to "No Thing" as you, without your proper understanding of the English language, put it.

[Whateverist]

Meh, no thing works for me .. leastwise no thing which stems directly from my lack of belief. Naturally everything good in life is still there.

[ronedee]

Meh, no thing works for me .. leastwise no thing which stems directly from my lack of belief.  Naturally everything good in life is still there.

Hey bro from a different foe... howzer? You look pretty good. Haven't fixed that floppy ear yet though!

Hey if "no thing" works for you? It works for you! 

I figured I'd checkout the "new meet" round here! Not too exciting these days...huh?
Not like the ol "fiery" days! Even mini seems subdued! he doin drugs or sumthin?

Good to see ya bub! 

---

Oh, dear, Goddess, the Ron is back.

And as full of shit as ever

Well.... I'm glad I have a place to go! Keep your scooper handy!

[Silver]

Well.... I'm glad I have a place to go! Keep your scooper handy!

There have been advances made whereby a scooper is no longer needed. Adios.

[ronedee]

Well.... I'm glad I have a place to go! Keep your scooper handy!

There have been advances made whereby a scooper is no longer needed.  Adios.

And "Go with God" to you also!

[robvalue]

Belief is not a choice. And you just said I wouldn't be punished for not believing. But I will, because of the reason I stated. It's an inevitable conclusion.

Anyhow, I could never love something that is ordering me to love it "or else". That is a monster.

Well..... an observation, questions and a hypothetical @ you.

Okay sure, but you didn't answer my question. How can you love something you don't think is real?

You say there isn't a god.

I said I don't believe in god. Under certain definitions of God, I will say there is no god, yes. It's an extremely vague term. The biblical god? Yes, I believe that is almost certainly fictional. It's a story like any other. Just one lots of people think is magically real somehow.

If you don't believe in God, why do you call Him a monster? Because of what others tell you about God? Or because you know that for a fact?

It was a hypothetical. If such a thing exists, and it was as you described, it would be a monster. You said his rule is that I have to love him, and if I don't, I'm going to face consequences. That to me is clearly a monstrous being. Was this not what you were saying?

Do you Love Life? Do you Love your fellow man? Do you consider yourself honest, caring loving person? Would you stop to help someone you know is in trouble, or help them in some way? These are just generalizations.

Love life? That's vague. I don't especially enjoy life since I'm extremely depressed. But I still value all life extremely highly. To all the other questions, yes. I consider myself a good and caring person. It's very important to me. Looking after other humans and animals is my number one priority in life.

What "IF" answering [yes] to all of these questions meant you were doing God's will, and in His good graces. Can you accept that as a possibility? And IF not, why?

I have no idea what this has to do with God. He wants me to be nice? Well, we have no problem there. If he wants me to be nice, I'm going to do that anyway. I'm not doing it because he's telling me to, though. If he told me not to be nice, I'd still be nice regardless.

If I'm in his good graces for being a nice person, then I'd say he is a very reasonable being, yes. If however he throws all that aside because I can't love him due to not believing he is real, then he's a monster again. Love is not demanded, it is earned. And step one would be him turning up to interact with me, and then hoping I would love him. That would be somewhat sensible.

If "loving god" is just another way of saying "being nice", then sure, I "love god", but it doesn't actually mean I literally love him. It would be like you loving Luke Skywalker or something, and me saying you're doing "his will". It doesn't make sense.