Debate: God Exists

[Drich]

God in Luke 11 set conditions to have the Holy Spirit poured out or joined with us. If you do ABC God will do XYZ

To falsify any ABC/XYZ claim is to full fill your ABC end.

You're absurd.

how so?

[dyresand]

if were talking about man mad god(s) then no said god(s) doesn't exist.
if were talking about god(s) we probably have know possible idea about then sure why not.

[Harry Nevis]

You're absurd.

how so?

I don't know how you got so absurd.  It's just plain in your posts.

[Drich]

[quote='Drich' pid='1527656' dateline='1490109215']

Because no one in that religion ever did.
Speaking to an angel and speaking to God is two very different things.

Muslims believe they can speak to God, as I have demonstrated.

If they claim this then by their own holy book they are hertics. Now they most certainly just shout out their feelings or pray or even put their wants into a formal wishing cermony if they like. However their book states it must be a one way conversation, less he sends an angel to his most highest and holy prophets. which is completly different than speaking with someone. That in english is refered to as talking at someone. So your points about allah speaking to people... trollish fantasy. Otherwise provide book chapter and verse please back up what you believe!

I have said many time We in Biblical Christianity are unique in that we are the only religion that puts the believer in a direct relationship with God with no intermediaries. There is a huge difference between being sent a fruit basket, and one being hand delivered by the one you love!

Historically, Christianity can not be tested since it relies on untestable claims, and it is funny that you try to bring some rational method into here since you don't seem to be interested in whether your religion is actually correct but that as long as you have some religious experience than you are satisfied with it.
If you are talking about the historicity of biblical texts and Jesus, then I recommend you push past what just Christian theologians and apologists tell you.

This is completely untrue. History is full of examples of documented healing, prophesy, eye witness accounts to hands on miracles. Which is absolutely no different than how anyother portion of history is captured and adopted. To doubt the existance of Christ is to doubt the existance of anyother figure in that time period as there is more from that time period written about Christ than there is about anyone else. Like wise there is more hand written manuscripts concerning Christianity as any other document event or even story.

Even today claims of miraculous healing and even the gifts of prophesy abound, however they are simply renamed anomalies or coincidences and dismissed.

In the end we all simply see what we want to see.

I get to see/watch how thing could have played out in a waking dream. Or another I was in over my head working on a car putting a new timming belt on and when I slacked the belt all four cams turned a different way. Prayed over that then physically watch each cam click one tooth at a time back into position. I locked them down and the car fired right up. (on a interference motor/Really big deal) Not to mention my contacts with 'messengers.' Again which is a completely different experience. Then in prayer/petition I know there is nothing I can't truly ask for and not receive. How ever I am fully aware of consequence, and the price to be paid for foolish things.  But more often than not I seek His will over mine.

This is typical religion. 

How so? alot of timing belts being required changing before salvation process is complete? What you fail or seemto be afraid to address is not that fact that these things happened to me.. But they wait for you if you simply bend your knee not to me but to God.

What if you were privy to daily supernatural occourances? where God seemingly bends nature to get you out of a spot? how long would it take to convince you? Or what if you were sat down in a 'bruce almighty' one on one with God.. Would you demand the circus tricks (seven fingers on one hand)

That sport is what is being offered (to one degree or another) to everyone on an individual level.

You: "but Gawd... I don't wanna think for myself!!! I need to have proof my friends and other smart people will say it is now ok to worship God"

What don't you get, that God does not want people like that in the body of believers?

That sport is why I know Christianity to be true. I've experienced what has been promised. The 'other religions' you mention do not promise what Christ does. if so then pleae provide book chapter and verse. or concede the point.

I know they don't, but they do claim divine revelation and experiences of their own.

THE ONE EXAMPLE YOU GAVE Was Of A Man Taking Direction From His God And Was Rebuked For It!!!

What you want to compare is a feeling verses physical and spiritual interaction/Relationship. Again not the same thing.

Christianity doesn't have enlightenment from meditation and reincarnation, why should I accept it if it doesn't contain these specific eastern views?

You don't even know/remember the importance of this subject.

You asked what makes Christianity true. I said because the bible offers a relationship with God if one will simply ABC

IF one ABC's then he has access to the Holy Spirit!!! This means you have direct unfettered access to God. For me this means I get my questions answered. All of them. I get what I pray for even in my doubt and in fear. for like the last 20+ years.

Imagine haveing every god related question answered, every prayer nearly every petition answered for that period of time, that adds up to alot of personal proof. That is what makes me a believer. And again that is what is offered to the least of us.

You all point out all my faults all the time yet God still supports me in ways that defy someone like me deserves. Yet again this is what is being offered to you. Experience these things for yourself. You don't even have to say anything out loud let alone go anywhere. Just need to be honest with yourself and ask/seek and knock as provided by the example in luke 11. just go to do all three openedly. the further you go down that path the closer to God you get.

Well said, and you are right. Religion tends to look up to supernatural revelation, experience, and interaction with some god. Rational based thinking looks for reasons to accept these beliefs and independent ways to confirm truths.

You don't seem to understand the word definations to the words you are using.

Rational is based on supposition a logical WHAT IF or I GUESS that is the most logical

In what world does "I guess" trump "This is what I observed?" When does speaking from a position literal ignorance top a position of experience? Oh, that's right in the world of philosophy and when speaking against God.

You assume the truths of what you already currently believe and see unbelievers as denying a truth that could be confirmed by supernatural experience.

Actually no. Not born into the religion. I experienced the truths and changed what I believe to fit what I learned. As should anyone that would pledge their life to God.

Rational thinking doesn't assume this but tries to examine it skeptically and find ways that could confirm truths.

actually no. Rational thinking follows the pattern of popular belief. otherwise The rational 'thinker' would take God up on his offer and allow God to open the flood gates.. To sit the rational thinker down before Him and speak with Him.

No what you describe is someone who takes solace in what others think first, and rarly will venture out when an opportunity presents itself to find real truth.

The latter is based on scientific thinking. It is the most accurate way to determine truths, and needs to be used for any belief, or else it is meaningless to believe, since accepting an untrue faith destroys the purpose of it.

Aww, how quaint/earth is flat of you.
"Science" even the admission of science is self is limited to the Physical world. That means being stuck in one relative point in time and space will only yield a singular view of the "knowable" (but currently unknown universe)

(break down for you= Science/scientific method requires several points of data to come to a conclusion. On a cosmic level because we are currently limited to a relitive finite point in time and space, we do not have but a singular point of data to fuel and manage how the rest of a potentially endless universe contains... Not bloodly likly old sport.

That is like one man looking at the moon and saying it is made out of cheddar and another with strong glasses able to see the craters and claim it is infact swiss. one data point in an infinite universe does not an expert make. your 'science' is the guy claiming it is swiss because he can see oh so slightly better.

My claims simply match the direction Christ left. Luke 11:1 Jesus teaches us how to pray. What He teaches is what I summarized (what you identified as not being mainstream)

So what if I were to ask you what if your idea of "Mainstream Christianity" is wrong? Is God then obligated to honor it, Honor/answer your prayers?

My point was that prayer is commonly believed to be a means of talking to God or get to know God. I wouldn't say God would be obligated to give you anything.

I'd say what you believe about prayer is wrong. If you look at the Lord's only example of prayer it is about You asking God to Change you into the Person He wants you to be. Not the other way round. Once you become that person or being shapped to be that person then it is easier to petition God for your personal items.

The experience of God is not outside what we can experience.

I mean that God is a supernatural being, so it is outside what we empirically determine. 

Again, not unless he walks you though it. It is a process and it will take time but God does indeed what to be known and he make himself avaible to be known. That is all on the table and indeed knowable. Even in times Past, David was said to possess the Heart of God Solomon His wisdom. Not that anyone man could know everything, but we can indeed know what He shares.

Again not a postulation. I am describing an experience of going to a place or more like meeting a person. The experience is a static one meaning it requires the same humility from us all. If we can humble ourselves to ask Seek and knock as outlined by luke 11 We have the opportunity to physically be set before God.

I am talking about the existence of God here, atheism is the absence of a belief in any god. When I ask, Does God exist?, it is up to the person postulating his existence to justify it, which is the theist.

but again you looking for best logical guess/guessing on how to describe God, and I am trying to show you how to have your own audience before Him. To ask your questions directly to Him and gain your answers. Why would you ever want to play best guess when you can find out for yourself?

Also, you are presuming God exists here, but you can't presume something exists to justify its existence.

Not a persumption sport. Maybe you oughta look that word up too: "belief on reasonable grounds or probable evidence. "
I would be persuming if I only saw pictures of the grand canyon and never been there myself. Again I stood before Christ in my judgement, I interact with the Holy Spirit Daily God to me is more real than you are.

That is like asking me to prove Sasquatch exists and I tell you that if you refuse to accept it exists, you won't find it, since it only appears to those that accept its existence.

Wow.. I like analogies because it shows me how much or little people understand abot a given subject. You understand little to nothing about God or religion.

God simply wants you to Ask Seek and Knock as outlined in Luke 11. When I did this I was persecuting Christians. (Beating up jesus freeks at school) I would ask then the same kinda crap you guys post here and watch them squirm. This was me asking and seeking. I think the only difference between what I did and what most of you do is I followed the truth where ever it lead no matter what. Lot of times this left me without the last word, till one night Jesus showed up.

Now re imagine my roll if I had been there. I saw the depth and beauty of it all. I can only describe what I saw. this is not some theory nor some guessing together patch work cobbobble. It is an experience. a very finite one at that. one that moves at a quick pace, even though you've been set on your heels by the whole thing and have a hard time taking it all in.

Your problem is you are arguing principles and ideologies when I am trying to get you to a physical place.

It is also something you would have the burden to prove, since you would be postulating its existence.

Again sport not postulating anything. I am pointing out the 'claim' made in the bible, and simply verifying by sharing what was done for me.

I am If you want to get me to god

Actually I don't personally care what you do. I simply want you to make an informed desision. Because I know some people do not want God no matter what, an I am the last person to want to drag someone like that kicking and screaming into the kingdom. The one thing I regretted the most was not seeking enough truth to make the derision to die the horrible second death.

then fine, demonstrate that he exists, if you can't, then why should I accept it? 

I can't make God do anything sport or i'd be God. That the little catch 22 science wants to catch God in. (Meaning if God is or can be manipulated into demonstration at our will and not his, then he ceases to be God by definition) No, I can only tell you where when and how to prepare yourself. Not that anyone need know, but at the same time your mind and heart need be right.

In the end, it doesn't matter how many ways you reword it, the theist will always be the one that has the need to demonstrate the existence of their god.

Ah, no. Maybe theist in general do, but the followers of the God of the bible do not. All we need do is simply relay where when and how to meet God. God is proof of Himself.

When all of the stuff I mention starts clicking off around you, or you find yourself face down in the dirt shouting Jesus is lord out and away from your own personal control You will know despite being able to reproduce God as if He were some birthday clown's trick.

Think about it in what world does a world leader or vip meet you on your terms? look to prove themselves on your request your demands? Would trump or obama ever seek an invitation from you on your terms to speak with you? Absolutely not. You would be summoned. You would be required to be dressed a certain way, your background would need be checked your physical person would be checked, and you would have to be at the right place at the exact right time.

Why oh why then would you think it any different with God?

You are to ABC and then God Will 123.

---

Indeed you can't give someone a road map to an imaginary place

and how do you authenticate the map?

[Mystic]

Drich, please don't interpret Quran without consulting the tradtions of the family of the reminder.

Let us see what those holy leaders taught us to say in the most well reported authentic Du'a (invocation) that we have from them:

My Lord, grant me complete severance of my relations with everything else and total submission to You. Enlighten the eyes of our hearts with the light of their looking at You to the extent that they penetrate the veils of light and reach the Source of Grandeur, and let our souls get suspended by the glory of Your sanctity.
My Lord, make me one of those whom You call and they respond; when You look at and they are thunderstruck by Your majesty. You whisper to them secretly and they work for You openly.
My Lord, I have not allowed my pessimistic despair to overcome my good opinion about You, nor did I ever lose my hope of Your benevolence.
My Lord, if my errors have degraded me with You, You may forgive me in view of my unqualified reliance on You.

[downbeatplumb]

Drich, please don't interpret Quran without consulting the tradtions of the family of the reminder.

Let us see what those holy leaders taught us to say in the most well reported authentic Du'a (invocation) that we have from them:

My Lord, grant me complete severance of my relations with everything else and total submission to You. Enlighten the eyes of our hearts with the light of their looking at You to the extent that they penetrate the veils of light and reach the Source of Grandeur, and let our souls get suspended by the glory of Your sanctity.
My Lord, make me one of those whom You call and they respond; when You look at and they are thunderstruck by Your majesty. You whisper to them secretly and they work for You openly.
My Lord, I have not allowed my pessimistic despair to overcome my good opinion about You, nor did I ever lose my hope of Your benevolence.
My Lord, if my errors have degraded me with You, You may forgive me in view of my unqualified reliance on You.

That does seem like it is directed straight to the deity of choice.

This seems to tinkle all over Drichs Xianities exceptionalist  view.

[TubbyTubby]

My prophesy is..

Drich quickly sidesteps, leaving a pile of steaming bullshit behind to refute the Mystic Knight.

[Harry Nevis]

Because no one in that religion ever did.
Speaking to an angel and speaking to God is two very different things.

Muslims believe they can speak to God, as I have demonstrated.

If they claim this then by their own holy book they are hertics. Now they most certainly just shout out their feelings or pray or even put their wants into a formal wishing cermony if they like. However their book states it must be a one way conversation, less he sends an angel to his most highest and holy prophets. which is completly different than speaking with someone. That in english is refered to as talking at someone. So your points about allah speaking to people... trollish fantasy. Otherwise provide book chapter and verse please back up what you believe!

I have said many time We in Biblical Christianity are unique in that we are the only religion that puts the believer in a direct relationship with God with no intermediaries. There is a huge difference between being sent a fruit basket, and one being hand delivered by the one you love!

Historically, Christianity can not be tested since it relies on untestable claims, and it is funny that you try to bring some rational method into here since you don't seem to be interested in whether your religion is actually correct but that as long as you have some religious experience than you are satisfied with it.
If you are talking about the historicity of biblical texts and Jesus, then I recommend you push past what just Christian theologians and apologists tell you.

This is completely untrue. History is full of examples of documented healing, prophesy, eye witness accounts to hands on miracles. Which is absolutely no different than how anyother portion of history is captured and adopted. To doubt the existance of Christ is to doubt the existance of anyother figure in that time period as there is more from that time period written about Christ than there is about anyone else. Like wise there is more hand written manuscripts concerning Christianity as any other document event or even story.

Even today claims of miraculous healing and even the gifts of prophesy abound, however they are simply renamed anomalies or coincidences and dismissed.

In the end we all simply see what we want to see.

You asked "how so" in response to being called absurd?  This load of crap is a perfect example why.  You're so full of shit, you're eyes are brown.

---

[quote pid='1527747' dateline='1490125981']

Rational thinking doesn't assume this but tries to examine it skeptically and find ways that could confirm truths.

actually no. Rational thinking follows the pattern of popular belief. otherwise The rational 'thinker' would take God up on his offer and allow God to open the flood gates.. To sit the rational thinker down before Him and speak with Him.

[/quote]

Here's another nugget of crap.  You amaze me.

[masterofpuppets]

"Science" even the admission of science is self is limited to the Physical world. That means being stuck in one relative point in time and space will only yield a singular view of the "knowable" (but currently unknown universe)

(break down for you= Science/scientific method requires several points of data to come to a conclusion. On a cosmic level because we are currently limited to a relitive finite point in time and space, we do not have but a singular point of data to fuel and manage how the rest of a potentially endless universe contains... Not bloodly likly old sport.

That is like one man looking at the moon and saying it is made out of cheddar and another with strong glasses able to see the craters and claim it is infact swiss. one data point in an infinite universe does not an expert make. your 'science' is the guy claiming it is swiss because he can see oh so slightly better.

Science is limited to the physical world because it is based on observations (i.e. data that can be collected, interpreted and used) that have so far been limited to the natural world. Nothing has been demonstrated to exist beyond the physical world, by science or otherwise. To make claims beyond that despite the fact that the supernatural has not been demonstrated is fallacious and is merely an act of knowledge gap-filling. A rational, logical thinker does not become convinced in supernatural claims because they are beyond the scope of our investigative abilities, and recognising one's own gaps in knowledge is imperative for success in scientific fields.

The aim of science is not to seek the "right" answer, it's to account for the data with models that have the greatest explanatory and predictive power. We can make predictions about what can be and likely is beyond the observations we have made so far, and none of these predictions point to the supernatural. This isn't because science outright dismisses the supernatural, but rather because we are limited to exploring natural phenomena and nothing supernatural has been shown to exist.

Your moon analogy is puerile but not even slightly confusing.

[Cyberman]

Anything that affects the physical world is squarely in the domain of science, by direct definition. Anything that doesn't affect the physical world can safely be ignored as irrelevant and, to all intents and purposes, nonexistent.