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Why Facts Don’t Change Our Minds
#11
RE: Why Facts Don’t Change Our Minds
People are to lazy to look up facts, most of them just pick the narrative that appeals to their way of thinking.
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#12
RE: Why Facts Don’t Change Our Minds
(February 26, 2017 at 2:03 am)Assimilate Wrote: People are to lazy to look up facts, most of them just pick the narrative that appeals to their way of thinking.

It's a lot more complicated than that.  It's easy to say, oh they just don't want to do it, lazy, stupid, etc, but the fact is it goes against basic human psychology, not just to check facts but to give them a fair hearing.  

It's basically a learned skill, like reading.  People don't chose to read, they must be taught it, though a select few may just pick it up, that isn't how most people learn to read.  If people aren't taught the skills to examine their beliefs critically at a young age, they never even have a chance.  It isn't a choice, or laziness.  It's education (or lack-there-of).
“Eternity is a terrible thought. I mean, where's it going to end?” 
― Tom StoppardRosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead
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#13
RE: Why Facts Don’t Change Our Minds
(February 25, 2017 at 6:15 pm)Aroura Wrote: It's an interesting, though not new, idea in psychology.  It amounts to (as the article says):
“Once formed,” the researchers observed dryly, “impressions are remarkably perseverant.”

Which is very true.  People have a hard time unlearning bad facts.  And it turns out things learned through inductive learning and reasoning is much, much harder to unlearn than things presented straight to a person.

So, if a person thinks they figured something out on your own, even when presented with a pile of hard facts, logic and reason s to why they are wrong, they will cling to the "fact" that they incorrectly induced on their own.

Not everyone does this all of the time, but it is a difficult barrier to surpass.  Some of us learn to question the things we believe, but most people are never actually able to do that in any objective way.  Hence rational, intelligent people clinging to religion and political beliefs that make absolutely no sense.

Its worse than that. People are more likely to believe something if it rhymes!
Red sky at night shepherds delight etc.

This was tested.

People were given information asked to rate its factualness.
Then they were given what amounted to the same information in pithy rhymes and asked to rate the factualness.
If it rhymed they believed if not they didn't.

People are dumb.



You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.

Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.




 








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#14
RE: Why Facts Don’t Change Our Minds
(February 26, 2017 at 5:00 am)Aroura Wrote:
(February 26, 2017 at 2:03 am)Assimilate Wrote: People are to lazy to look up facts, most of them just pick the narrative that appeals to their way of thinking.

It's a lot more complicated than that.  It's easy to say, oh they just don't want to do it, lazy, stupid, etc, but the fact is it goes against basic human psychology, not just to check facts but to give them a fair hearing.  

It's basically a learned skill, like reading.  People don't chose to read, they must be taught it, though a select few may just pick it up, that isn't how most people learn to read.  If people aren't taught the skills to examine their beliefs critically at a young age, they never even have a chance.  It isn't a choice, or laziness.  It's education (or lack-there-of).

I was going to disagree with you (because in this day and age, information is easily obtainable), but you got me with this.

Quote:If people aren't taught the skills to examine their beliefs critically at a young age, they never even have a chance.

I grew up in the 70's as the epitome of a latch key kid.  My parents were divorced, and my mom worked retail at a small town drug store.  My mother is not a smart or curious woman, and I honestly learned very little from her.  What I did have was ample free (me) time and a local library across the street.  Instead of going home and watching the one or two channels of TV we had, I went to the library and allowed my mind to wander. 

I think it's possible for children to learn this themselves.  A young mind is a curious mind.  What's worse than not being taught to think critically is to be taught to NOT think critically.

“Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth.”
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#15
RE: Why Facts Don’t Change Our Minds
The article honestly doesn't surprise me, not even a little bit. I've met scads of people over the years who won't let the facts sway them in the face of a Higher Truth.

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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#16
RE: Why Facts Don’t Change Our Minds
(February 26, 2017 at 8:07 am)Kosh Wrote:
(February 26, 2017 at 5:00 am)Aroura Wrote: It's a lot more complicated than that.  It's easy to say, oh they just don't want to do it, lazy, stupid, etc, but the fact is it goes against basic human psychology, not just to check facts but to give them a fair hearing.  

It's basically a learned skill, like reading.  People don't chose to read, they must be taught it, though a select few may just pick it up, that isn't how most people learn to read.  If people aren't taught the skills to examine their beliefs critically at a young age, they never even have a chance.  It isn't a choice, or laziness.  It's education (or lack-there-of).

I was going to disagree with you (because in this day and age, information is easily obtainable), but you got me with this.

Quote:If people aren't taught the skills to examine their beliefs critically at a young age, they never even have a chance.

I grew up in the 70's as the epitome of a latch key kid.  My parents were divorced, and my mom worked retail at a small town drug store.  My mother is not a smart or curious woman, and I honestly learned very little from her.  What I did have was ample free (me) time and a local library across the street.  Instead of going home and watching the one or two channels of TV we had, I went to the library and allowed my mind to wander. 

I think it's possible for children to learn this themselves.  A young mind is a curious mind.  What's worse than not being taught to think critically is to be taught to NOT think critically.
Oh I agree.  Just like some people can learn to read even if no one teaches them.  But most people won't do it.  You are one of the people who would.  Yes, people can learn it on their own, even as adults.  But even those of us who learn this still have to actively push ourselves not to fall back into an echo chamber of our own pre-conceived notions.  It's why scientists use blind studies and why the scientific method is so important, because bias creeps in unknowingly based on what they think is true, even when they are honest and don't mean to.

I think that indoctrinating kids early with religion is a way people teach their kids not to reason at all.  When people are taught that some things just are and cannot be questioned, and worse, that having blind faith can be a desirable attribute, they've really harmed that child's chances of being able to question their own beliefs as adults.  It can still happen, clearly, I myself was indoctrinated young but still managed to get out of it, though it took time.  For some people, it never really takes hold. You hear on here about people who's parents raised them in religion, but they questioned early, by 8 or 9 and never really bought into it all.  

I think it's safe to say most people aren't like that, though.  The information age seems to be raising the number who can teach themselves, but most people don't seem able to do that, either.
“Eternity is a terrible thought. I mean, where's it going to end?” 
― Tom StoppardRosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead
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#17
RE: Why Facts Don’t Change Our Minds
(February 26, 2017 at 3:00 pm)Aroura Wrote: Oh I agree.  Just like some people can learn to read even if no one teaches them.  But most people won't do it.  You are one of the people who would.  Yes, people can learn it on their own, even as adults.  But even those of us who learn this still have to actively push ourselves not to fall back into an echo chamber of our own pre-conceived notions.  It's why scientists use blind studies and why the scientific method is so important, because bias creeps in unknowingly based on what they think is true, even when they are honest and don't mean to.

I think that indoctrinating kids early with religion is a way people teach their kids not to reason at all.  When people are taught that some things just are and cannot be questioned, and worse, that having blind faith can be a desirable attribute, they've really harmed that child's chances of being able to question their own beliefs as adults.  It can still happen, clearly, I myself was indoctrinated young but still managed to get out of it, though it took time.  For some people, it never really takes hold. You hear on here about people who's parents raised them in religion, but they questioned early, by 8 or 9 and never really bought into it all.  

I think it's safe to say most people aren't like that, though.  The information age seems to be raising the number who can teach themselves, but most people don't seem able to do that, either.

I think it would be worth teaching critical thinking in schools. It's possible that many schools in many countries teach children about "truths" (history, sciences, etc.) but don't teach them to doubt their own thinking and to evaluate and re-evaluate what they believe. I believe students should also be taught in schools about the means of manipulation and mass manipulation so they can observe them and be more careful about them.

I can relate as far as religion goes. I got internet for the first time when I was 18-19 years old, and I was 19 when I first heard the word "atheist", if you can believe that. I was raised in a religious pentecostal family, religious environment, within a religious society. How I managed to evade faith? It surprises even myself. But I also know, it was hard, and it also took me about 1 year of torment with the conviction that I was going to burn in hell for eternity because I could no longer believe - even though, before that, I had come to the conclusion that, if God was fair, then even atheists should be able to reach heaven. And now I feel that I had been deprived of living a normal life.

Perhaps schools and churches and parents tend to teach children and adolescents to "comply" to the rules and beliefs of the society rather than challenge them. And perhaps they are likewise eager to punish those who don't fall in line.

P.S. History classes can also be a danger to a society, if it's not treated fairly. In countries who value nationalism and where children are taught history with the flavour "We have always been the good guys, brave, smart, etc." rather than also tell them the grotesque things their ancestors had done, they may grow with the conviction that "we're the good guys, the others had wronged us. we can't do evil." - and such mentality can have grave effects.
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#18
RE: Why Facts Don’t Change Our Minds
(February 25, 2017 at 7:06 pm)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:“Once formed,” the researchers observed dryly, “impressions are remarkably perseverant.”

Something religion has always relied upon.

It's got thousands of years of experience. Practice makes perfect.

(February 25, 2017 at 9:07 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Spesking of which....

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/02/trump-as...ravel-ban/

Quote:Trump asked for terror intelligence report but rejects results because they undermine travel ban


Government by fantasy.

Welcome to my reality. So far, it smells like Trump is the combination of various kinds of politicians I've been seing in my country - just add to it an "I'm the best. Nobody does it better than me" flavor.
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#19
RE: Why Facts Don’t Change Our Minds
I also found this article interesting:

https://markmanson.net/everything-is-fucked
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#20
RE: Why Facts Don’t Change Our Minds
Anotther:

http://skepdic.com/backfireeffect.html
[Image: extraordinarywoo-sig.jpg]
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