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RE: What self-subsists, maximum or minimal existence?
March 14, 2017 at 11:45 pm
(March 14, 2017 at 7:20 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: So what self-subsists also has some laws on it that limit it?
Or does it make more sense what self-subsists is the source of all laws?
What exists has characteristics, which we model as laws.
"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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RE: What self-subsists, maximum or minimal existence?
March 15, 2017 at 12:24 am
(March 14, 2017 at 6:44 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: My question to you, when you think of self-subsistence, independent existence, where do you place your bets? If neutral why neutral?
I'm betting on the small rather than the large. Literally everything I know of is composed of matter/energy, and whatever infinitesimal substance comprises them is what must therefore be at the root of all that exists.
Quote:And what you know about yourself, your own self, seeing it exists, doesn't that tell you minimum existence cannot make the fabric of existence but we are connected to something higher?
Not at all. I believe that the "self" is an illusion, a property of the physical brain, and simply ceases to exist when the brain dies.
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RE: What self-subsists, maximum or minimal existence?
March 15, 2017 at 4:44 am
(March 14, 2017 at 6:44 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: If materialists are right, then the smallest quarks are what constitute the root of existence. That would be what self-subsists. It would be what magically exists and everything would be made from that. Materialists don't have much time for magical anything.
Quote:if Theists are right, then the greatest existence is what constitutes the root of existence. That would be what self-subsists. It would be what magically exists and everything would be made from that.
Sure, some theists, anyway.
Quote:My question to you, when you think of self-subsistence, independent existence, where do you place your bets? If neutral why neutral?
Between those two? Materialists, lol.
Quote:And what you know about yourself, your own self, seeing it exists, doesn't that tell you minimum existence cannot make the fabric of existence but we are connected to something higher?
Nope.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: What self-subsists, maximum or minimal existence?
March 15, 2017 at 6:20 am
Wait! I thought you quit with a poem last time:
http://atheistforums.org/thread-47935.html
I know I know..
Matter in fact, I don't know.!!!
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RE: What self-subsists, maximum or minimal existence?
March 15, 2017 at 6:28 am
(March 14, 2017 at 7:20 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: (March 14, 2017 at 6:54 pm)Alex K Wrote: Particles are embedded in spacetime and adhere to certain laws, they don't really exist in isolation. So what self-subsists also has some laws on it that limit it?
Or does it make more sense what self-subsists is the source of all laws?
I don't know, I'm not used to thinking in these terms and am not sure what they mean. But my view from my physics would rather be that particles are just states of a whole, the wobbly spacetime with fields in it adhering to laws. Particles are more like a symptom of the universe to borrow from Sabbath, than the fundamental thing on which it is based.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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RE: What self-subsists, maximum or minimal existence?
March 15, 2017 at 9:06 am
(March 14, 2017 at 6:44 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: If materialists are right, then the smallest quarks are what constitute the root of existence. That would be what self-subsists. It would be what magically exists and everything would be made from that.
if Theists are right, then the greatest existence is what constitutes the root of existence. That would be what self-subsists. It would be what magically exists and everything would be made from that.
My question to you, when you think of self-subsistence, independent existence, where do you place your bets? If neutral why neutral?
And what you know about yourself, your own self, seeing it exists, doesn't that tell you minimum existence cannot make the fabric of existence but we are connected to something higher?
I forget, is English your first language, MK?
Because I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but this is just nonsensical.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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RE: What self-subsists, maximum or minimal existence?
March 15, 2017 at 9:08 am
(This post was last modified: March 15, 2017 at 9:09 am by Cyberman.)
(March 14, 2017 at 7:20 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: So what self-subsists also has some laws on it that limit it?
Or does it make more sense what self-subsists is the source of all laws?
You're letting your misunderstanding of what physical laws are lead you down a dead end. Laws of physics are not commandments or pronouncements. You won't get fined for breaking the law of gravity. No physics police are going to show up at your door with a warrant. Nor is it written on stone tablets anywhere that "thou shalt attract every other particle in the universe using a force that is directly proportional to the product of thy masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between thee".
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: What self-subsists, maximum or minimal existence?
March 15, 2017 at 4:13 pm
I'll take "Things holy books should have said" for 500 Stim.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: What self-subsists, maximum or minimal existence?
March 15, 2017 at 4:34 pm
And in the beginning, God said: let there be photon thingies!
No God, No fear.
Know God, Know fear.
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RE: What self-subsists, maximum or minimal existence?
March 16, 2017 at 2:51 am
(This post was last modified: March 16, 2017 at 2:52 am by masterofpuppets.)
(March 14, 2017 at 7:20 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: So what self-subsists also has some laws on it that limit it?
Or does it make more sense what self-subsists is the source of all laws?
Laws are purely conceptual. They are our descriptions of certain phenomena. We use laws to describe and predict certain behaviours.
For example, Newton's second law of motion states that the net force on an object is its acceleration multiplied by its mass. This is our description of the relationship between acceleration, force and mass.
"Faith is the excuse people give when they have no evidence."
- Matt Dillahunty.
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