Shots fired outside the houses of Parliament.

[John V]

Mine is an ideal world in which no death is justified. Of course I have to make compromises when worlds collide. That saddens me, but I'm realist enough to understand that not everyone thinks like I do and accept that I can't change the fact.

That's a really interesting comment. I've been asking about muslim immigration to europe for years. In the past, I wasn't called a bigot for doing so. Lefty atheists acknowledged that there was much about the mindsets of many in middle eastern muslim countries that they were against. They didn't hide behind stereotyping arguments. Their reasoning in supporting immigration was that the secular west is a better way of life, and immigrants would see that and assimilate. Now I'm not getting that argument.

[The Industrial Atheist]

Agreed, even though I personally deplore any loss of life. The actions taken by the MCB as well as ordinary members of the public really drive a stake through the heart of simplistic, divisive and downright dangerous "us and them, you're with us or against us" posturing. That some people seem unable to recognise that is worryingly revealing.

IMO  we should know, it's not Christians VS Muslims or Atheists VS Muslims but jihadists VS everyone else.

[The Grand Nudger]

Their reasoning in supporting immigration was that the secular west is a better way of life, and immigrants would see that and assimilate. Now I'm not getting that argument.

Add that to the list of things you don't get, I guess?

[John V]

Their reasoning in supporting immigration was that the secular west is a better way of life, and immigrants would see that and assimilate. Now I'm not getting that argument.

Add that to the list of things you don't get, I guess?

Not "not getting" as in not understanding - "not getting" as in not receiving that argument from others. 

Now I'm wondering if that's because the position has become untenable, or because political discourse has degraded in general. Or both.

[abaris]

Now I'm wondering if that's because the position has become untenable, or because political discourse has degraded in general. Or both.

What position exactly? I gather, not broadbrushing every muslim as being evil is being in bed with terrorists in your mind. So it follows from there, that you should be ashamed of the white supremacist killing a black man in New York, because, well he was white and a christian on the side. You probably cringe in shame everytime an abortion clinic is bombed or a doctor killed because you are christian. You utterly condemn when some pastor calls for killing gay people.

No?

Then shut the fuck up on untenable positions, just because you like to broadbrush what's outside your own precious group.

[downbeatplumb]

Mine is an ideal world in which no death is justified. Of course I have to make compromises when worlds collide. That saddens me, but I'm realist enough to understand that not everyone thinks like I do and accept that I can't change the fact.

That's a really interesting comment. I've been asking about muslim immigration to europe for years. In the past, I wasn't called a bigot for doing so. Lefty atheists acknowledged that there was much about the mindsets of many in middle eastern muslim countries that they were against. They didn't hide behind stereotyping arguments. Their reasoning in supporting immigration was that the secular west is a better way of life, and immigrants would see that and assimilate. Now I'm not getting that argument.

The reason that Muslims are being radicalised is because of the continuing plundering of Muslim countries by the west, mainly the USA.

This was the reason given by Bin Laden for his actions.

Maybe if you'd not meddled years ago these things wouldn't have happened they way they did, that goes for the UK as well we are not blameless.

But what you see now are a lot of aggrieved muslims.

And you can see the same mindset in Americans, the funding of terrorist groups by Irish Americans is well documented.

Their country was being oppressed in their eyes and they supported the terrorists. One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist.

[abaris]

The reason that Muslims are being radicalised is because of the continuing plundering of Muslim countries by the west, mainly the USA.

It's not even that. If you have a look at what Isis posted, the first fundraiser for the victims in London, came from a muslim organisation.

It's also - unreported here as well as the mainstream media - that the majority of victims are in fact muslims. I haven't seen a single word on the hundred dying recently in Iraq. I haven't seen any thread on the near daily terrorist attacks in Iraq, Syria or Afghanistan. Scores if not hundreds of people are dying on a daily basis. But that's not what's interesting all the good people. I don't see any of the usual suspects getting all outraged over that. It totally flies under their radar and they couldn't care less.

[The Grand Nudger]

Not "not getting" as in not understanding - "not getting" as in not receiving that argument from others. 

Now I'm wondering if that's because the position has become untenable, or because political discourse has degraded in general. Or both.

Or maybe, just maybe, people are tired of talking to you about immigration?

It's not really an argument for or against something, in any case - just a statement of fact.

[Isis]

That's a really interesting comment. I've been asking about muslim immigration to europe for years. In the past, I wasn't called a bigot for doing so. Lefty atheists acknowledged that there was much about the mindsets of many in middle eastern muslim countries that they were against. They didn't hide behind stereotyping arguments. Their reasoning in supporting immigration was that the secular west is a better way of life, and immigrants would see that and assimilate. Now I'm not getting that argument.

Lefty atheists acknowledged that there was much about the mindsets of many in middle eastern muslim countries that they were against

I wouldn't exactly label myself an atheist or a leftie. The truth is, yes, there are ugly elements in the cultures of certain Islamic countries but we need to find a balance. For example, there was a Muslim shopkeeper in my city. His name was Asad Shah and he arrived in Scotland in 1998 after receiving asylum. He was completely integrated, ran a business, paid his taxes and generally loved by the local community, however, he was murdered by an extremist last year. It wasn't some crazed white nationalist; it was an Islamic extremist.

The extremists are in the minority but you certainly won't hear that reported by the likes of Breitbart or the Daily Mail. The majority of immigrants and asylum seekers (Islamic or not) are just looking for a better life. Nobody is saying that we should just open the borders completely and let everyone in, but travel bans and things like that are not the answer. Trust me, stop reading certain news outlets and the paranoia goes away.

[Autumnlicious]

That's what bugs me about threads like this.

Another fucking ideological criminal who decided to harm others in the most vicious way available. I hate violent criminals. And I want less of them.

However I cannot help but feel a silent manipulation present. There's an inherent expectation that "This criminal is representative of <ethnic/racial/religious group>". Which is clearly not the case - for every nasty murderous loser, there's a dozen quiet law abiding folks.

The fear of a fifth column has proven to be without substantial evidence. So any attempt to strengthen it is met with immediate resistance.

I want these criminals of all stripes, of all creeds, or all ideologies to be isolated and contained. Because they keep emerging from every crack - we just ignore them if they're commonplace.

I remember when Dr. Tiller, a famous doctor, was murdered by a Christian anti-abortionist. No one talked about the dangers of Christianity.

Hypocrisy incarnate. I treat all threats the same and expect others to do so as well. Disingenuous behavior helps no one except the manipulative and the disgusting. A criminal is a criminal. Whomever abuses their position to make/summon/support such criminals should be looked at very carefully. If they're clean, so be it. If not, well "where there's smoke..."