Can prayer change God's perfect plan?

[Brian37]

I think some people are just having a hard time grasping the concept of being outside the dimension of time and therefore being able to see it all at once. Which is understandable, since we live within time and don't have the ability to comprehend a dimension that is outside of it.

To us, it's past, present, and future, one moment happening at a time... and if we imagine someone "knowing the future" we imagine it means they know because they will control it. So, since they know what we will choose to do in the future, that must mean they will control what we choose, right? I get that.

But there is a difference between that^ and someone being outside of time entirely, and them "knowing the future" because to them there is no "future" to begin with - they are outside of that. They can see everything happening all at once, hence they can see us making our choices.

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But of course this gets to the point where that's what you're asserting what God's nature is, and actually demonstrating this assertion is another ball of wax entirely.

That is true. I know I can't prove anything. I'm just giving my opinion. I'm glad you can understand what I'm saying though.

You can fantasize with unlimited imagination about what lays outside space and time in another dimension. If I claimed a giant invisible pink unicorn is outside space and time that would be just as equal a guess, and just as superfluous with no evidence.

If you want a real measurement of what space/time and other dimensions you go with quantum physics, not old books of myth. There is no super natural or deity or God/gods needed to fill in the gap to explain the unknown.

[Valyza1]

Considering the idea of acting according to God's Will to be "one thing" is like considering living your life to be "one thing". You can categorize a whole bunch of things under a single title and call it "one thing", that doesn't mean it isn't also many things.  How would YOU define freedom?

You said God knows the future and our actions and choices are predetermined. That means we're free to do what God predicts and ONLY what god predicts. That's one thing.

Suppose you had the ability to look back and watch your entire past in as much detail as you want, knowing you can't change it. Would that make all the multiple choices you made in the past any less free? That's all omnipotence means. To know all things and events. There's no restriction on freedom there to those who are making choices. I don't understand why people can't wrap their heads around this.

The interesting thing is I'm not even trying to justify theism.  I'm just speaking hypothetically about the apparent conflict between Free Will and Determinism and explaining my thoughts about how they can co-exist.  I'm not interested in doing a "logic-battle" with anyone.

The only version of free will that is NOT in conflict with determinism is by definition: Compatabilism.

Which is a type of free will that no one doubts anyway. It's not a philosophical problem. It's a philosophical way of dodging a problem rather than dealing with it.

And it's a definition of free will that's so lax that it means we're free even though we can't do otherwise.

You can call that free however much you like... but you're basically just labelling normal willpower as "free will" rather than actually addressing the question.

Compatabilism is a godamn side-step.

So basically, what you are calling Free Will is the complete absence of Determinism, yes? If that's the case, then I agree with you. Free Will, by that definition, does not exist, because determinism does exist.

[brewer]

You said God knows the future and our actions and choices are predetermined. That means we're free to do what God predicts and ONLY what god predicts. That's one thing.

Suppose you had the ability to look back and watch your entire past in as much detail as you want, knowing you can't change it.  Would that make all the multiple choices you made in the past any less free?  That's all omnipotence means.  To know all things and events.  There's no restriction on freedom there to those who are making choices.  I don't understand why people can't wrap their heads around this.

[edit]

Your argument only includes looking to the past? Where is your argument for god seeing the future, and knowing humans future actions? If they are known prior to the human actually taking the action, then the human has no free will and is only following what god has for seen, what god has commanded. To the human there is only the pretense of free will.

Don't forget psalm 139:4 and isaiah 46:9.

I can't wrap my head around it because it is a faulty premise.

[Harry Nevis]

Suppose you had the ability to look back and watch your entire past in as much detail as you want, knowing you can't change it.  Would that make all the multiple choices you made in the past any less free?  That's all omnipotence means.  To know all things and events.  There's no restriction on freedom there to those who are making choices.  I don't understand why people can't wrap their heads around this.

Maybe it's because you're confusing omnipotence with omniscience.

[Aroura]

If he could see all our possible choices, but not know which we chose until WE chose it, then we could have free will, in the god scenario.  

Well... not if the future is still determined. Whether he can see it or not... if the future is determined we cannot do otherwise.

Also... if the future is undetermined... we can't do otherwise in any meaningful sense either! If the future is undetermined that means we can't determine our futures either.... quantum randomness controlling our actions is just as unfree!

As Sam Harris has said... to paraphrase him: The free will that most people believe in is not only impossible... but its not even possible to conceptualize... and the so-called ILLUSION of free will doesn't even exist. When people think that there's this illusion where it SEEMS like they're choosing from different options... they believe that but it's not what their experiences shows them if they actually pay attention. It's a delusion not an illusion. The illusion of free will is itself an illusion. There is no illusion of free will.

I myself have lost the illusion of that illusion. When thoughts pop into my head I know they're just popping into my head.... I know I'm not picking them and I know it NEVER SEEMED like I was.... I just made the non-sequitur most people make... I found the causes of my thoughts ultimately unknown and thereby assumed I must have chosen them.... but of course there's a regress that stretches back far past my consciousness... and when something occurs in my consciousness... it ultimately comes from unconsciousness.

I now genuinely feel like I observe my thoughts, sensations and actions rather than author them.... so no wonder I find mindfulness dumbfounding... lol. I'm already mindful. It's hard to escape the present now.

My life feels like watching a very mundane movie.

Right, I personally agree it is all predetermined, but I'm trying to talk to CL starting from her point of view.  I'm trying to point out the logical inconsistency in her argument.  Sometimes that means I discuss, for the sake of argument, things that I don't agree with or believe in, like God or free will.  
We all talk about God did this or God did that in here, even though we don't believe in him.  Same thing here.

I'd like her to answer my question.

[Catholic_Lady]

Well... not if the future is still determined. Whether he can see it or not... if the future is determined we cannot do otherwise.

Also... if the future is undetermined... we can't do otherwise in any meaningful sense either! If the future is undetermined that means we can't determine our futures either.... quantum randomness controlling our actions is just as unfree!

As Sam Harris has said... to paraphrase him: The free will that most people believe in is not only impossible... but its not even possible to conceptualize... and the so-called ILLUSION of free will doesn't even exist. When people think that there's this illusion where it SEEMS like they're choosing from different options... they believe that but it's not what their experiences shows them if they actually pay attention. It's a delusion not an illusion. The illusion of free will is itself an illusion. There is no illusion of free will.

I myself have lost the illusion of that illusion. When thoughts pop into my head I know they're just popping into my head.... I know I'm not picking them and I know it NEVER SEEMED like I was.... I just made the non-sequitur most people make... I found the causes of my thoughts ultimately unknown and thereby assumed I must have chosen them.... but of course there's a regress that stretches back far past my consciousness... and when something occurs in my consciousness... it ultimately comes from unconsciousness.

I now genuinely feel like I observe my thoughts, sensations and actions rather than author them.... so no wonder I find mindfulness dumbfounding... lol. I'm already mindful. It's hard to escape the present now.

My life feels like watching a very mundane movie.

Right, I personally agree it is all predetermined, but I'm trying to talk to CL starting from her point of view.  I'm trying to point out the logical inconsistency in her argument.  Sometimes that means I discuss, for the sake of argument, things that I don't agree with or believe in, like God or free will.  
We all talk about God did this or God did that in here, even though we don't believe in him.  Same thing here.

I'd like her to answer my question.

I appreciate it. 

Though I feel like I've already answered that question and given my explanations. I'm not sure how else I can say the same thing.

[Drich]

When it doubt look up the word sport.


Why?  It doesn't help to understand your delusions, Dick.

If you do not understand something ask a question

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Read the op and my first response. it's all there. I simply narrow the focus of what my answer was so that you guys can't play word games.

But that's just what you're doing, Dick.

If you think I have changed or try to change anything, then you either do not know what is going on or do not understand the nature of the topic.

[Aroura]

You said God knows the future and our actions and choices are predetermined. That means we're free to do what God predicts and ONLY what god predicts. That's one thing.

Suppose you had the ability to look back and watch your entire past in as much detail as you want, knowing you can't change it.  Would that make all the multiple choices you made in the past any less free?  That's all omnipotence means.  To know all things and events.  There's no restriction on freedom there to those who are making choices.  I don't understand why people can't wrap their heads around this.

The only version of free will that is NOT in conflict with determinism is by definition: Compatabilism.

Which is a type of free will that no one doubts anyway. It's not a philosophical problem. It's a philosophical way of dodging a problem rather than dealing with it.

And it's a definition of free will that's so lax that it means we're free even though we can't do otherwise.

You can call that free however much you like... but you're basically just labelling normal willpower as "free will" rather than actually addressing the question.

Compatabilism is a godamn side-step.

So basically, what you are calling Free Will is the complete absence of Determinism, yes?  If that's the case, then I agree with you.  Free Will, by that definition, does not exist, because determinism does exist.  

Oh oh, let me field this.  YES!  It would make all the "choices" you made in the past determined, because they are by definition fixed and unchangeable.  If God is standing outside of time and looking at all of it as if it already happened, then it's fixed and unchangeable, and therefore determined. If it is determined, then you don't actually have a choice, just an illusion of one.

HOW an entity gains the ability to see predetermined events is irrelevant.  If it's from "being outside of time and space", or through a magic spell that imparts all knowledge of the past and future, same difference.   If the future can be seen and there aren't multiple choices in that future, then people are not making free choices, they are simply following the predetermined path that has already been seen, and only have the illusion of choosing/free-will.


Also, under what definition of free-will are you claiming that it does exist, then?

[Catholic_Lady]

I think some people are just having a hard time grasping the concept of being outside the dimension of time and therefore being able to see it all at once. Which is understandable, since we live within time and don't have the ability to comprehend a dimension that is outside of it. To us, it's past, present, and future, one moment happening at a time... and if we imagine someone "knowing the future" we imagine it means they know because they will control it, hence, we don't have free will. But there is a difference between that and someone being outside of time entirely and "knowing the future" because to them there is no future to begin with - they can see everything happening all at once.

Do you understand what it means to "be outside of the dimension of time"?  Or if that makes any real sense or if it's possible?  Or is this all just what you're (and Catholic doctrine) is asserting?  It's one thing to assert something and another to prove or demonstrate it.  

I'd like to see why you think it's possible to be outside of the dimension of time let alone that there is an entity already there.

I think it's impossible for any of us to fully comprehend what it means to be outside of time, because we can't possibly fathom time not existing/not being a factor. I think I've explained as much of it as I understand, though. I will say that I think time exists only so long as matter exists. God is spirit and is therefore not bound by time.  

I agree that it's one thing to assert something and another thing to prove it. It is not possible to prove that anything can exist outside of time, that's just my belief regarding God. I said a few pages back that I'm not trying to prove anything, just explaining my beliefs and giving my opinions. Why I believe what I do is a whole other story, and I've touched on it (as much as one reasonably can via forum posts) a handful of times on other threads.

[Aroura]

Right, I personally agree it is all predetermined, but I'm trying to talk to CL starting from her point of view.  I'm trying to point out the logical inconsistency in her argument.  Sometimes that means I discuss, for the sake of argument, things that I don't agree with or believe in, like God or free will.  
We all talk about God did this or God did that in here, even though we don't believe in him.  Same thing here.

I'd like her to answer my question.

I appreciate it. 

Though I feel like I've already answered that question and given my explanations. I'm not sure how else I can say the same thing.

Ok, let me try again.

"Explain to yourself first, and then anyone here, how anything is free if it cannot be any other way because the outcome is already known by God."

So far, you're explanation is simply that God stands outside of time and space, but this does not even begin to answer the question, that only explains HOW he experiences all things (and not very well at that), it does not address at all how that gives you or anyone free will.  You've simply sidestepped the question, not answered it.

For instance, right now, you have the "choice" to respond to me or not.  God already knows which way that will be.  How are you choosing it, then?  Can you possibly CHOOSE the other way that God has not forseen?? 

If the answer to the underlined is no, then how is this a choice at all?