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Can prayer change God's perfect plan?
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 (May 11, 2017 at 3:58 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I thought the atheist position was that you didn't know if a god exists because there has not been enough proof to convince you of one. Not that you've already concluded that one for sure does not exist. Am I wrong? No god(s) exist, except in the mind of men.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental.
 (May 11, 2017 at 6:40 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:(May 11, 2017 at 3:58 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I thought the atheist position was that you didn't know if a god exists because there has not been enough proof to convince you of one. Not that you've already concluded that one for sure does not exist. Am I wrong? No, not just in men, but women and boys and girls. But yea, it is still all in their heads. I know what you meant, "our species", it is kinda antiquated now to say "In the minds of men". Humans, our species seems more apt in today's conversations.  Can prayer change God's perfect plan?
May 11, 2017 at 6:48 pm
(This post was last modified: May 11, 2017 at 6:57 pm by Valyza1.)
(May 11, 2017 at 3:58 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I thought the atheist position was that you didn't know if a god exists because there has not been enough proof to convince you of one. Not that you've already concluded that one for sure does not exist. Am I wrong? From what I understand, the most popular current understanding of the term "athiest" is someone who rejects the proposition that a god exists. There could be many different types of atheists under that definition and one might separate them into positive atheists, who believe there are no gods, and weak atheists who simply have no belief about a god's existence one way or the other 
LOL, I'm having some trouble pondering a definition for "believer" that would be all encompassing in regards to the AMAZING diversity of piety, hubris, fealty, and knowing WAY more than Jesus does that we see here every day.
The granting of a pardon is an imputation of guilt, and the acceptance a confession of it.
(May 11, 2017 at 7:16 pm)vorlon13 Wrote: LOL, I'm having some trouble pondering a definition for "believer" that would be all encompassing in regards to the AMAZING diversity of piety, hubris, fealty, and knowing WAY more than Jesus does that we see here every day. How about: "someone who believes in the existence of a god "? (May 11, 2017 at 7:37 pm)Valyza1 Wrote:(May 11, 2017 at 7:16 pm)vorlon13 Wrote: LOL, I'm having some trouble pondering a definition for "believer" that would be all encompassing in regards to the AMAZING diversity of piety, hubris, fealty, and knowing WAY more than Jesus does that we see here every day. kinda tough to bounce that one thru realizing so very very very many "believers" nevertheless on topic after topic, know more than God. I "believe" in electricity to the extent I am never careless around it, particularly in regards to touching my tongue to live wires. How many "believers" respect even 10% of scripture to that degree ?? See the problem ??? The granting of a pardon is an imputation of guilt, and the acceptance a confession of it.
 (May 11, 2017 at 6:48 pm)Valyza1 Wrote:(May 11, 2017 at 3:58 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I thought the atheist position was that you didn't know if a god exists because there has not been enough proof to convince you of one. Not that you've already concluded that one for sure does not exist. Am I wrong? Yeah, I knew there were different types/levels or whatever. But I was under the impression that overall, most atheists would say that they still haven't 100% ruled out the possibility for existance of a god, and that saying "I don't think there is, but can't say with absolute certainty that there isn't," was the most accurate way to describe atheism.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh 
Well any non-belief in gods describes atheism. The certainty of that non-belief varies.
Personally, I find it impossible to conceive of a supernatural God. Even if something does live outside of time and space, it would just be very, very alien, it would still be natural. So I think my issue is that anything that might have created us is just alien. Think Q from Star Trek. Even if it caused the big bang and all that followed, why would it care about us? And if it did, why would it want or deserve worship?
If I'm to be punished for lacking imagination, that isn't something I chose, but an actual limitation I have, so any supposed creator god/alien creature that punishes me, not for some imaginary free choice but for literally being the way I'm made, is just a monster. That is like intentionally deforming your children, then punishing them (eternally, too!) for being born deformed. I've never read, seen, nor heard a definition of God that makes sense to me. I used to accept it without ever thinking deeply about it, because it's such a nice idea on the surface. But the first time I ever started asking questions and digging below the surface, it started making no sense whatsoever. So personally I reject all the definitions of gods that have been presented to me as impossible, wishful nonsense. But everyone has their own specific take on this, and who knows, perhaps I'm really just very unimaginative, so I won't say with 100% certainty that I am correct. I think this is where most atheists and theists differ. Even the hardest atheists often express some form of "But my mind could be changed", while that is rarely the case with theists (though ironically, it seems that for many their minds can be changed, they just don't like to admit to any doubt upfront, as that is considered a sin in and of itself).
“Eternity is a terrible thought. I mean, where's it going to end?”
― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead Can prayer change God's perfect plan?
May 11, 2017 at 8:01 pm
(This post was last modified: May 11, 2017 at 8:01 pm by Valyza1.)
(May 11, 2017 at 7:40 pm)vorlon13 Wrote:No. It wouldn't matter if a believer didn't believe enough to respect a full 1% of scripture. As far as defining "believer" goes, it's pretty simply anyone who believes in a god, no matter how strongly or disproportionately.(May 11, 2017 at 7:37 pm)Valyza1 Wrote: How about: "someone who believes in the existence of a god "? |
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