The Trinity and Mary

[Fake Messiah]

So your saying that because his morals and sentiments were reflected by earlier cultures, that proves that the gospels were made up?

Well that proves Jesus was nothing new in town, either by his moral teaching or "divinity" elements. What you think it's just coincidence that he was born of a woman and son of main god like made up gods have been doing for few thousand years before? That he resurrected like myriad of gods before him? I guess you go by "explanation" of old christian apologists that all that was invented by devil to prove how Jesus was just a myth. Is it also coincidence he was saying same stuff that people have been saying for centuries already?
And it is well documented that Jesus myth was created during Council of Nicaea by taking myths about him and deciding which suit them well and which do not. I mean take the one that didn't make it like Jesus being as strong as a giant to run his course all over the world was obviously proclaimed invented and even you consider it fake and made up, so what makes other myths not made up? Just because they at Council of Nicaea said it was not?

You referenced cultures that had multiple gods, more than three, but grouped some into triads and decided that the writers of the new testament copied them to form the trinity.  What about all the other gods?

Well that's the whole topic. Christianity also has many gods. Vorlorn mentions how come Virgin Mary didn't make it into holly Three. The three major so called monotheistic religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, still believe in a host of supernatural beings, particularly angels and the devils and even saints. For instance doesn't Satan, a fallen angel, seem like a god ruling over hell? He's not so different from the ancient Greek god Hades, who is supposed to be running the underworld. The idea that only one deity among many should be worshiped is known as henotheism rather than monotheism.

Look at it this way, if one knew nothing about Christianity and heard descriptions of flying angels and demons with magical powers, it would probably seem reasonable to conclude that this is a religion with many gods who have a variety of roles and who possess different abilities, much like many other religions. Those other religions did have many gods but their belief was more refined, just like Christians today. They had the big three who were main gods and others who kind of participated.

Looking historically they are beings created by the one all powerful Creator just as the Egyptian deities were the product of the one all powerful Egyptian Creator. The idea of an all powerful Creator who brought forth other supernatural beings has its roots in ancient Egypt. There it was a central belief in most religious cults that a single Creator was responsible for all of existence, including the appearance of other deities. It is the Egyptian views that initially influenced Hebrew understanding of the first times, and many of Egyptian Creation myths are replicated in biblical history.

As for him speaking of his divinity, I think this is pretty explicit:

John 10:30-38English Standard Version (ESV)
30 "I and the Father are one.”

So you're trying to say that because Jesus was re-hashing some old stuff from the Bible is because he was JHWH himself. So what if he proclaimed himself as god himself or messiah? Why would you or I believe him or it? For starters he didn't meet specific criteria in the OT like that he must bring world peace; he must rebuild the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem; must influence the entire world to acknowledge and serve one G-d; and so on.
Was it because of his moral teachings that were already well known? So what's so special about him?

And also how sincere are you in this belief? Do you really believe that Jesus flood the world? God the Father did not suffer on the cross. How could he if he was sacrificing his only son? Did not Jesus himself supposedly yell to his father as he was on the cross? Is he not suppose to sit on his right side? So how can they be the same person?

There are countless similarities in our modern culture to ancient civilizations.  Does this mean that we copied them or that we just share some common ideas?

DUH! We are continuation of old civilizations. Trough time people succeed earlier people's ideas, customs, religions and then live by some, change some.
What do you think Founding Fathers invented democracy or was it invented by old Greeks? Same thing with gods.

[Drich]

Well of course if it was original, but remember makers of Jesus myth were like Hollywood producers today instead of inventing something new, just re-hash the old and familiar. Even early Christians were aware of this, like Justin Martyr, a second-century apologist who wrote:

And when they tell that Hercules was strong, and travelled over all the world, and was begotten by Jove of Alcmene, and ascended to heaven when he died, do I not perceive that the Scripture which speaks of Christ, “strong as a giant to run his race,” has been in like manner imitated? And when he [the devil] brings forward Aesculapius as the raiser of the dead and healer of all diseases, may I not say that in this matter likewise he has imitated the prophecies about Christ? And when I hear that Perseus was begotten of a virgin, I understand that the deceiving serpent counterfeited also this.

Where is the story of Jesus being as strong as a giant to run his course all over the world? This is obviously one of the many accounts of Jesus that apparently played into the origin and development of Jesus myth, but which was eliminated in tha final draft of Council of Nicaea.

You must understand that bits and pieces of Jesus myth were created and when Constantine proclaimed Christianity they took some bits and pieces of it and took other stuff from Roman religion so that people of Rome can swallow it easier. Like the whole crap about the Trinity was taken from Roman Capitoline Triad of Jupiter (father), Juno (wife), and Minerva (daughter), who took it from the Greeks Olympic triad of Zeus (king of the gods), Athena (goddess of war and intelect) and Apollo (god of the sun, culture and music); who took it from Hellenistic Egypt triad of Isis, Alexandrian Serapis and Harpocrates; and so on.

[Cyberman]

The lithium just kick in, Drich?

[Harry Nevis]

The lithium just kick in, Drich?

That may be the most cogent response he's given yet.

[Minimalist]

The Marian cult emerged in the 5th century....just shortly after the trinity cult emerged in the 4th.  Both are alike therefore in being total bullshit.

[Lek]

So your saying that because his morals and sentiments were reflected by earlier cultures, that proves that the gospels were made up?

Well that proves Jesus was nothing new in town, either by his moral teaching or "divinity" elements. What you think it's just coincidence that he was born of a woman and son of main god like made up gods have been doing for few thousand years before? That he resurrected like myriad of gods before him? I guess you go by "explanation" of old christian apologists that all that was invented by devil to prove how Jesus was just a myth. Is it also coincidence he was saying same stuff that people have been saying for centuries already?
And it is well documented that Jesus myth was created during Council of Nicaea by taking myths about him and deciding which suit them well and which do not. I mean take the one that didn't make it like Jesus being as strong as a giant to run his course all over the world was obviously proclaimed invented and even you consider it fake and made up, so what makes other myths not made up? Just because they at Council of Nicaea said it was not?

You referenced cultures that had multiple gods, more than three, but grouped some into triads and decided that the writers of the new testament copied them to form the trinity.  What about all the other gods?

Well that's the whole topic. Christianity also has many gods. Vorlorn mentions how come Virgin Mary didn't make it into holly Three. The three major so called monotheistic religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, still believe in a host of supernatural beings, particularly angels and the devils and even saints. For instance doesn't Satan, a fallen angel, seem like a god ruling over hell? He's not so different from the ancient Greek god Hades, who is supposed to be running the underworld. The idea that only one deity among many should be worshiped is known as henotheism rather than monotheism.

Look at it this way, if one knew nothing about Christianity and heard descriptions of flying angels and demons with magical powers, it would probably seem reasonable to conclude that this is a religion with many gods who have a variety of roles and who possess different abilities, much like many other religions. Those other religions did have many gods but their belief was more refined, just like Christians today. They had the big three who were main gods and others who kind of participated.

Looking historically they are beings created by the one all powerful Creator just as the Egyptian deities were the product of the one all powerful Egyptian Creator. The idea of an all powerful Creator who brought forth other supernatural beings has its roots in ancient Egypt. There it was a central belief in most religious cults that a single Creator was responsible for all of existence, including the appearance of other deities. It is the Egyptian views that initially influenced Hebrew understanding of the first times, and many of Egyptian Creation myths are replicated in biblical history.

As for him speaking of his divinity, I think this is pretty explicit:

John 10:30-38English Standard Version (ESV)
30 "I and the Father are one.”

So you're trying to say that because Jesus was re-hashing some old stuff from the Bible is because he was JHWH himself. So what if he proclaimed himself as god himself or messiah? Why would you or I believe him or it? For starters he didn't meet specific criteria in the OT like that he must bring world peace; he must rebuild the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem; must influence the entire world to acknowledge and serve one G-d; and so on.
Was it because of his moral teachings that were already well known? So what's so special about him?

And also how sincere are you in this belief? Do you really believe that Jesus flood the world? God the Father did not suffer on the cross. How could he if he was sacrificing his only son? Did not Jesus himself supposedly yell to his father as he was on the cross? Is he not suppose to sit on his right side? So how can they be the same person?

There are countless similarities in our modern culture to ancient civilizations.  Does this mean that we copied them or that we just share some common ideas?

DUH! We are continuation of old civilizations. Trough time people succeed earlier people's ideas, customs, religions and then live by some, change some.
What do you think Founding Fathers invented democracy or was it invented by old Greeks? Same thing with gods.

None of the spiritual beings in christianity are considered gods other than the trinity, which is three divine persons in one God. It's a lousy assumption that because there are similarities between christianity and prior religions that the writers of the bible copied their ideas. I notice that you failed to address the old testament quotes that I presented supporting the idea of the trinity long before the ancient Greek and Roman societies. It seems that if anybody copied ideas, it was the Greeks and Romans. One thing I can say is that these societies all possessed one truth among them, which is that they recognized there is a God. None of what we are discussing here amounts to proof of whether Jesus is divine or not. I believe in Christ because of the personal revelation that God has given me. I don't believe you make a good case for the falsity of the gospels.

[Cyberman]

None of the spiritual beings in christianity are considered gods other than the trinity, which is three divine persons in one God.

Like this?

[Lek]

Yeah. Just like that.

[Fake Messiah]

None of the spiritual beings in christianity are considered gods other than the trinity, which is three divine persons in one God.

Hey, go tell it to the majority of Christians in the world who pray more to the Mary and the saints then Jesus/god not to mention build Churches to them. They obviously have godly superpowers. Even basilica in Rome is devoted to a what you would define "non-god".
Here's a clip in which priest in Vatican explains how Jesus/god is only sixth on the praying list for Catholics

I notice that you failed to address the old testament quotes that I presented supporting the idea of the trinity long before the ancient Greek and Roman societies.

Well only if you ignore what I wrote like you do. So I'll add some to that which is that it is impossible to cling to Jesus quotes since he contradicts himself. He did say, like you mentioned, equated G-d with himself but you ignore the parts when I pointed out that he said he was different then the JHWH. I mean how could this be true when he repeatedly said he was not God's equal? In John 14:28 Jesus said, "My Father is greater than I"; in John 20:17 he said, "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God"; and in John 7:16 he said, "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." Clearly, in every instance Jesus is denying that he is God's equal. Why would anyone who is God's equal say that the Father is greater than himself and that he recognized the Father as his god?
Or should we decide for ourselves which one is truth and which one is made-up?

And also trying to find references to Jesus in OT is nothing but wishful thinking on part of Christians. Because the son of man is often referred to in the most uncomplimentary fashion. For instance, Psalms 146:3 states, "Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man in whom there is no help." Job 25:6 says, "How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm." Notice it refers to the son of man as a worm. One would have less difficulty applying these verses to Jesus than many of the verses that have been deemed forecasters of his presence.
But the truth is there is no prophecy in the OT foretelling the coming of Jesus Christ. There is not one word in the OT referring to him in any way- not one word. The only way to prove this is to take your Bible, and wherever you find these words: "That it might be fulfilled" and "which was spoken" turn to the OT and find what was written, and you will see that it had not the slightest possible reference to the thing recounted in the NT - not the slightest.

It seems that if anybody copied ideas, it was the Greeks and Romans.

Well that is some far-fetched claim considering that trinity was never mentioned in the Bible. They must have been truly skillful theologians, seeing trinity before Jesus. No wonder Pope has the title Pontifex Maximus like the grand pagan priest, when they were already Catholics.

I believe in Christ because of the personal revelation that God has given me.

Yeah that's the "beauty" of religion when all rationality fails you can always run to "Ah, I just feel it's the truth".

[Fake Messiah]

OK let me further expand on the evidence that Christian Trinity is directly taken from earlier polytheist religions, like Capitoline Triad. Main thing is Trinity only makes sense in polytheist religions (where there are three different gods), while in so called monotheist Christianity it makes no sense at all (since it only has one god), so it's clear it was forced upon Christianity.

We can even try calling it forced marriage of Jewish one god religion and polytheism, because it really tortures Jewish religion of monotheism resulting that trinity in monotheism is beyond understanding. IT MAKES NO SENSE. If the trinity is indivisible, then Jesus, being also the Holy Ghost, must have had intercourse with his own mother in order to produce himself as the son. She being the daughter of God and Jesus being the son of God, she was also his sister.
And if not, then it is clear that Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, are three separate persons; thus the trinity cannot be a unity in one person. Or what happened to the whole universe when all three were dead? Who would have resurrected them?
Now I know there are some theologians that insist that we can not understand it because we have only human brains, but on the other hand it makes sense in polytheism where there are many gods.


The Trinity is defined as the belief that there is one God who has revealed Himself in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, and these three persons are the one God. Now there is no evidence for that. Lek did mention that Jesus equated himself with YHWH, but I also inserted that far larger number of verses clearly show that Jesus did not consider himself to be God or God's equal. Another thing OT repeatedly says God is one, unique, a unity, a being without equals, divisions, or parts. For example, Deuteronomy 4:35 says, "The Lord he is God; there is none else beside him."
Also God himself stated in Genesis 6:3 that he would not abide in man or the flesh. He said, "My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for he is flesh". Thus, Jesus could not be both man and God and be so forever, for that would violate this verse.