The Problem of Evil combined with the problem of Free Will

[Simon Moon]

For some people, great hardship strengthens their faith.

And of course, those that have had great hardships, and have had their 'faith strengthened' toward Shiva, Allah, Ahura Mazda, etc, is all okay according to Christian doctrine, right?

Your god is perfectly okay with creating the cultural isolation that allows people by the billions to believe in the 'wrong god'? He will allow them into heaven anyway, right?

[LastPoet]

That begs the question because you are presuming determinism by saying their 'nature' makes them choose a certain way. They live under different circumstances and have different experiences but that does not necessarily compel them to respond to the challenges or comforts that they encounter in a specific way. It could just as easily be that someone with a charmed life of comfort and pleasure would take God's role in their life for granted and attribute his success to self-reliance and personal virtue.



Christians don't need definitive answers on specific theological points in order to trust in Jesus and the authority of Scripture. It seems to me that you are exaggerating internecine squabbles to justify your incredulity.

You don't think definitive answers about the nature of salvation are important??

Of course not. He expect us to be at least as gullible as he is. lol @ theology. as if it was ever such a great exercise in futility. heh, its his life. As to salvation... A poor construct based on simple human fear, greatly used by religion to pay the bills and their spreading of empty words, that will keep paying their superior morality bullshit.

[Aroura]

So the answers I'm getting are:

God is not just.  We are all sinners, so if he saves anyone, then hurray.  He's not saving anyone on merit, either, but apparently picking them for reasons unknown to humans, as apparently even denying him isn't enough to send you to hell.  ?  Is this all correct? [1]

So basically, God works in mysterious ways, he'll save those he chooses to save for his own reasons that we can't possibly understand.  Also, life isn't a test, yet it isn't Gods fault we suffer, even though he made us able to suffer in an unjust and uncaring universe? [2]

None of this makes ANY sense to me.  How can you believe all these contradictory things, like that God is omni-everything, yet isn't responsible for our suffering?  Not all suffering (nor even most) is a result of human behaviors.  Drought, flood, earthquakes, disease, hunger, are most often the outcome of things humans have zero control over.  

If Life isn't a test, why are we put here to suffer, instead of just going directly to heaven, as some other beings supposedly got to do?[3]

1. God is just and I don't know how you got that from anyone's answer. Why do you say "picking them"? In your scenario, you said Jamal rejected God because of his experiences. 
2. Why "for his own reasons" again? God could easily have created a universe without suffer. Obviously that was not his goal. Free will and the ability for people to love each other and love him seems to take precedence. 
3. There is no logical problem with the concept--let's call that the intellectual Problem of Evil (PoE) (which has largely been abandoned by professional philosophers). You objection is based on empathy/emotions or the emotional PoE. I fully agree and understand that this is one of or the biggest obstacle for an open-minded person to have when considering the God of Christianity. However, I do have a couple of points about a Christian perspective on this issue (adapted from a podcast I listened to):

a. The chief purpose of life is knowledge of God, not happiness. 
b. We are in a state of separation/rebellion against God and his purpose-spiritual evil can prevail for a time. 
c. This life is but a blip when considering eternity and God has that perspective that we often don't see/remember.
d. The knowledge of God is of immeasurable importance--and far outweighs finite suffering.

a. Then why doesn't everyone have an equal chance at "revelation"? Why were angels created and given an automatic in?
b. I did not choose to separate or rebell from anything. Why would I be punished for being created human?  I did not choose this state.
c. The amount of time we suffer does magically not eliminate the problem of evil
d. Then why not just give it to us in the first place?  And don't say he did, because there was literally nothing for thousands of years of human history.  Those people get a free pass, or not?  Having some people write down inconsistent stories that look idenditcal to many works of mythology hardly counts as revealing knowledge of himself.

I fully suspect this to go right back where I suspected, to supposed free choice.  As if many atheists didn't spend decades as theists doing their very best to believe.  It always, always comes down to victim blaming.

It's a really good thing it is just a mythology, no different than Zeus. At least ancient religions often recognized that their Gods were also monsters.

[Edwardo Piet]

That begs the question because you are presuming determinism by saying their 'nature' makes them choose a certain way.

No I'm not. We do what we do because of the way we are whether our nature is deterministic or indeterministic.

[John V]

a. Then why doesn't everyone have an equal chance at "revelation"? Why were angels created and given an automatic in?
b. I did not choose to separate or rebell from anything. Why would I be punished for being created human?  I did not choose this state.
c. The amount of time we suffer does magically not eliminate the problem of evil
d. Then why not just give it to us in the first place?  And don't say he did, because there was literally nothing for thousands of years of human history.  Those people get a free pass, or not?  Having some people write down inconsistent stories that look idenditcal to many works of mythology hardly counts as revealing knowledge of himself.

I fully suspect this to go right back where I suspected, to supposed free choice.  As if many atheists didn't spend decades as theists doing their very best to believe.  It always, always comes down to victim blaming.

It's a really good thing it is just a mythology, no different than Zeus. At least ancient religions often recognized that their Gods were also monsters.

Hold on there cowgirl...in your scenario, everyone meets God at the end and then makes the choice, so everyone does have an equal chance at revelation.

[Edwardo Piet]

He's saving people on the basis of Christ's atonement on the cross. You can accept it if you want, but you don't have to if you don't want to. If you accept it, that's smart of you, but you didn't merit it yourself - Jesus did.

I agree. It is indeed smart to accept that based on the 'basis' of a book that's thousands of years old, written by different goatherders and then cobbled together and mistranslated repeatedly. All 'based on' hearsay.

And when a book that's thousands of years old claims to have been written by people inspired by God... and claims that the son of God came back from the dead and died for all our sins...

...it's certainly smart to believe that.

This is all of course assuming that by "smart" you in fact mean "retarded".

[Succubus]

For some people, great hardship strengthens their faith.

Tell that to Elisabeth Fritzl
She was held captive for 24 years by her father who repeatedly raped her, fathering seven children. Now tell me again about free will, Elisabeth's free will. Tell me about how her children's faith was strengthend by watching their mother being raped by her father?
Tell me about the kids in Africa going blind because of the eye worm. A worm that only infects humans. You people disgust me than the eye worm.

[Aroura]

For some people, great hardship strengthens their faith.

Tell that to Elisabeth Fritzl
She was held captive for 24 years by her father who repeatedly raped her, fathering seven children. Now tell me again about free will, Elisabeth's free will. Tell me about how her children's faith was strengthend by watching their mother being raped by her father?
Tell me about the kids in Africa going blind because of the eye worm. A worm that only infects humans. You people disgust me than the eye worm.

This is exactly the point of the OP, and yet none of the theists have addressed it, not really.  Just dismissed it.

[Amarok]

Tell that to Elisabeth Fritzl
She was held captive for 24 years by her father who repeatedly raped her, fathering seven children. Now tell me again about free will, Elisabeth's free will. Tell me about how her children's faith was strengthend by watching their mother being raped by her father?
Tell me about the kids in Africa going blind because of the eye worm. A worm that only infects humans. You people disgust me than the eye worm.

This is exactly the point of the OP, and yet none of the theists have addressed it, not really.  Just dismissed it.

Because they can't address it they can only make excuses to get there god off the hook

And what a horrendous notion that god would put someone through that just to test there faith

[Silver]

This is exactly the point of the OP, and yet none of the theists have addressed it, not really.  Just dismissed it.

Because they can't address it they can only make excuses to get there god off the hook

And what a horrendous notion that god would put someone through that just to test there faith

Theists do not consider it horrendous that people suffer under the guidance of god.

And that is a problem.