The Problem of Evil combined with the problem of Free Will

[emjay]

So does your position boil down to [variable] shit happens in life but God's only promise is salvation? That that is the free gift that is on offer to all but there is no promise about reducing actual suffering in this life, on account of it being down to the free will of others, and that life is only a blip compared to eternity? [1] What of suffering that is not due to the free will of others, such as natural disasters and being born handicapped in some way... ie suffering that is neither the person's fault or any other person's fault? The point is, the suffering is variable, even taking into account the free will of others as one possible get-out clause, and the more someone suffers, the harder it is to accept and keep the faith. Therefore people receive the same offer but on different terms... some are never tested with real suffering or loss, whereas others experience both through no fault of their own or others. [2]

1. Yes. I would add that God promises to provide support to cope with the suffering.
2. This line of reasoning does not seem to be the case in the real world. The more suffering in the world, the faster Christianity grows. Christianity is growing at unprecedented rates in the third world even today. I am certainly not saying God causes suffering, but God seems to be more real to those in need. To supernaturally intervene ever time someone asked might not be the greatest good considering the "blip compared to eternity".

1. Okay, so he offers internal support (ie psychological support) but generally not external support (ie miracles)? Given that setup of limited intervention externally, how can you distinguish between 'God's plan' and what would have happened anyway according to the clockwork universe? That's one thing, and secondly I don't deny that those are powerful psychological offerings that have profound effects on how people perceive life... hope, positive thinking etc will always lead to a richer quality of perceived life, as will the self-esteem offering of someone who loves you unconditionally. But there is no way to prove that it is God at work and not your own mind, because the mind is more than capable of doing all those things without the notion of a God.
2. As per 1. Even if it is the case that many suffering people take to Christianity, there's no way to prove that God is not a placebo effect. Many suffering people also leave Christianity... perhaps when the placebo ceases to satisfy?

[Neo-Scholastic]

For some people, great hardship strengthens their faith.

You're proving Aroura's point... some people do and some people. don't. It's all because of their specific nature... which they didn't themselves choose.

That begs the question because you are presuming determinism by saying their 'nature' makes them choose a certain way. They live under different circumstances and have different experiences but that does not necessarily compel them to respond to the challenges or comforts that they encounter in a specific way. It could just as easily be that someone with a charmed life of comfort and pleasure would take God's role in their life for granted and attribute his success to self-reliance and personal virtue.

So even the Christans here disagree as to the answers to these questions. Is god just? So far it looks like one yer, one no, and one equivocation.

How and why we are saved seems pretty damned important. It is eternal after all. It's a good thing the just god has given everyone an equal shot at it. Not.

Christians don't need definitive answers on specific theological points in order to trust in Jesus and the authority of Scripture. It seems to me that you are exaggerating internecine squabbles to justify your incredulity.

[John V]

So even the Christans here disagree as to the answers to these questions. Is god just? So far it looks like one yer, one no, and one equivocation.

How and why we are saved seems pretty damned important. It is eternal after all. It's a good thing the just god has given everyone an equal shot at it. Not.

So, in your scenario - you've died and are face to face with god, and given a choice between eternal happiness or eternal suffering - you'd choose suffering because god hasn't fully explained all his judgment to you, and from what you do know you don't think god's being fair.

In the end, it comes down to pride. The saved accept that the creator has the right to judge the creation. The unsaved sit in judgment of their creator.

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So even the Christans here disagree as to the answers to these questions. Is god just? So far it looks like one yer, one no, and one equivocation.

How and why we are saved seems pretty damned important. It is eternal after all. It's a good thing the just god has given everyone an equal shot at it. Not.

Christians don't need definitive answers on specific theological points in order to trust in Jesus and the authority of Scripture. It seems to me that you are exaggerating internecine squabbles to justify your incredulity.

And when we do agree, they say that proves that we're unthinking sheep.  

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First, Christianity doesn't claim that anyone's salvation is JUST, remotely or otherwise. Salvation is a function of mercy and grace, not justice...grace is by definition unmerited, it's nonsensical to complain that it's not just. Of course it isn't. That probably doesn't make sense to you. The Bible acknowledges that - "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing."

Except in the sense that Jesus suffered the penalty of sin on our behalf - an act of Grace that restores justice.

Agreed - I got to that in subsequent posts.

[SteveII]

So the answers I'm getting are:

God is not just.  We are all sinners, so if he saves anyone, then hurray.  He's not saving anyone on merit, either, but apparently picking them for reasons unknown to humans, as apparently even denying him isn't enough to send you to hell.  ?  Is this all correct? [1]

So basically, God works in mysterious ways, he'll save those he chooses to save for his own reasons that we can't possibly understand.  Also, life isn't a test, yet it isn't Gods fault we suffer, even though he made us able to suffer in an unjust and uncaring universe? [2]

None of this makes ANY sense to me.  How can you believe all these contradictory things, like that God is omni-everything, yet isn't responsible for our suffering?  Not all suffering (nor even most) is a result of human behaviors.  Drought, flood, earthquakes, disease, hunger, are most often the outcome of things humans have zero control over.  

If Life isn't a test, why are we put here to suffer, instead of just going directly to heaven, as some other beings supposedly got to do?[3]

1. God is just and I don't know how you got that from anyone's answer. Why do you say "picking them"? In your scenario, you said Jamal rejected God because of his experiences. 
2. Why "for his own reasons" again? God could easily have created a universe without suffer. Obviously that was not his goal. Free will and the ability for people to love each other and love him seems to take precedence. 
3. There is no logical problem with the concept--let's call that the intellectual Problem of Evil (PoE) (which has largely been abandoned by professional philosophers). You objection is based on empathy/emotions or the emotional PoE. I fully agree and understand that this is one of or the biggest obstacle for an open-minded person to have when considering the God of Christianity. However, I do have a couple of points about a Christian perspective on this issue (adapted from a podcast I listened to):

a. The chief purpose of life is knowledge of God, not happiness. 
b. We are in a state of separation/rebellion against God and his purpose-spiritual evil can prevail for a time. 
c. This life is but a blip when considering eternity and God has that perspective that we often don't see/remember.
d. The knowledge of God is of immeasurable importance--and far outweighs finite suffering.

[LastPoet]

The problem here for me is that "gods", whatever those are, are nothing more than a fantasy, made for those that think they need that belief to stay with a stable mind.

#1. The human mind lefts much to be desired in terms of stability. We all know, I think, how much wrong can you get.

#2. The old deterministic vs chaotic universe canard. Obviously Chaotic, within chaos some subjective "order" exists. I can testify for that.

That is the question I pose to the regular lel, philosophers here, What is the equation to calculate Entropy? As you should know, you will be in a nigh on impossible task to reverse engineer a chaotic process, unless you are tight at the start.

[Mister Agenda]

In the Bible (1 Corinthians 10:13) there is a promise God won't let you be tempted more than you can bear. There is no promise that you won't be given more than you can handle. The authors could just look around and see that's not true, they would have been laughed out of town in a world where half your children were likely to die before they reached the age of five, women often died in childbirth, and any injury could get infected and kill you; not to mention plagues, war, and natural disasters.

You are very much confusing temptation to sin with the circumstances you find yourself in. Read from the beginning of the chapter.

I was very much making a distinction between the temptation to sin and whatever circumstances you find yourself in. Please read from the beginning of my post.

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It sure isn't smart of anybody to believe such tripe.

The more tripe-ey it is, the more virtuous it is to believe it. Anyone could believe it if it was plausible. However, you're a fool who will go to hell if you believe other tripe that is equally as supported.

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Well, instead of sitting on your hyper/pseudoskeptical ass and simply asserting millions of people's experiences are not real, why don't you find someone who has experienced suffering and God's peace and ask them. Find an article somewhere and post a comment.

He says, with no consciousness of irony, while dismissing the experiences of the 5 billion people who aren't Christians....

Ad populum, appeal to pity, and plain old wrong.

[Aroura]

You're proving Aroura's point... some people do and some people. don't. It's all because of their specific nature... which they didn't themselves choose.

That begs the question because you are presuming determinism by saying their 'nature' makes them choose a certain way. They live under different circumstances and have different experiences but that does not necessarily compel them to respond to the challenges or comforts that they encounter in a specific way. It could just as easily be that someone with a charmed life of comfort and pleasure would take God's role in their life for granted and attribute his success to self-reliance and personal virtue.

So even the Christans here disagree as to the answers to these questions. Is god just? So far it looks like one yer, one no, and one equivocation.

How and why we are saved seems pretty damned important. It is eternal after all. It's a good thing the just god has given everyone an equal shot at it. Not.

Christians don't need definitive answers on specific theological points in order to trust in Jesus and the authority of Scripture. It seems to me that you are exaggerating internecine squabbles to justify your incredulity.

You don't think definitive answers about the nature of salvation are important??

[Harry Nevis]

You're proving Aroura's point... some people do and some people. don't. It's all because of their specific nature... which they didn't themselves choose.

That begs the question because you are presuming determinism by saying their 'nature' makes them choose a certain way. They live under different circumstances and have different experiences but that does not necessarily compel them to respond to the challenges or comforts that they encounter in a specific way. It could just as easily be that someone with a charmed life of comfort and pleasure would take God's role in their life for granted and attribute his success to self-reliance and personal virtue.

So even the Christans here disagree as to the answers to these questions. Is god just? So far it looks like one yer, one no, and one equivocation.

How and why we are saved seems pretty damned important. It is eternal after all. It's a good thing the just god has given everyone an equal shot at it. Not.

Christians don't need definitive answers on specific theological points in order to trust in Jesus and the authority of Scripture. It seems to me that you are exaggerating internecine squabbles to justify your incredulity.

If you don't need definitive answers for god's existance, why would you need them for theological points.

[John V]

You don't think definitive answers about the nature of salvation are important??

Can't say as I've ever met a person who admits that they're a sinner deserving of death, likes what they hear about Christian salvation, but walks away because they can't definitively determine the fate of the souls of every person who's ever lived. So...no, not very important.

[SteveII]

You are very much confusing temptation to sin with the circumstances you find yourself in. Read from the beginning of the chapter.

I was very much making a distinction between the temptation to sin and whatever circumstances you find yourself in. Please read from the beginning of my post.

Sorry, I misread your sentence.