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"Cultural Appropriation"
RE: "Cultural Appropriation"
(June 12, 2017 at 11:53 am)Shell B Wrote: TLDR; cultural appropriation is not bad. Killing people is bad. Other forms of genocide (sterilization, impregnation with "better" races, etc.) are bad. Even what we're doing as far as not limiting our actions so reservations stay clean is bad. Buying a dreamcatcher is not a problem unless you want to make it a problem for the sake of being pissed at something. In fact, I'd say it's a good thing. It shares culture and the person selling it makes some money.
Yeah, you know, I'm trying to get inside Tizheruk's skin, for two reasons: 1) I think the native population is way under-represented; 2) a LOT of people are crying about various forms of cultural appropriation, and my natural reaction is to tell them to fuck off and get a life. But I'm really trying to see something there, to see that these people have a valid point, and to better myself through it.

However, as I said to Tizheruk, while I agree with him/her in principle, I find it very hard to actually care deeply, and almost impossible to find motivation to act on it. So the truth is that whatever I've said about you, I have to look in the mirror as well-- I'm a middle-aged white man and a business owner to boot, an even more hated beast than a young white woman. tbh, I saw you wearing a little dream catcher, I'd be much more likely to say "Who's the cute girl with the little Indian thingy" Than "omg what a bitch, how can she be so insensitive?" even though I've talked to someone who has reasonably eloquently explained why my reaction should be more sombre. (sorry Tizheruk, that's not to undermine your position, but I think it's an honest representation of my actual reaction)
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RE: "Cultural Appropriation"
Quote:bennyboy Wrote:
Yeah, you know, I'm trying to get inside Tizheruk's skin, for two reasons: 1) I think the native population is way under-represented; 2) a LOT of people are crying about various forms of cultural appropriation, and my natural reaction is to tell them to fuck off and get a life. But I'm really trying to see something there, to see that these people have a valid point, and to better myself through it.

That's a great way to look at it and you're right to want to try and understand.
BUT, just because something is upsetting to someone, it doesn't follow that that is proof positive that something bad is going on. Feelings are not always rational and hurt feelings are not always warranted.
If people find some artifact or musical style or clothing to their liking and they start to "appropriate" it, what's the real harm other than some other person simply disliking that the "other" person is enjoying what is supposed to be theirs? A woman dressed as a geisha may be seen as "insulting" asians but she might actually just be honoring them because she finds it beautiful. So, even if an asian person is insulted by it, they are not actually harmed by it and it is impossible to try and guess what is someone else's intent.

There are so many examples of good things that have come from cultural appropriation. The sauna, tea, rock and roll, democracy... Maybe I'm just being optimistic but good ideas get appropriated far more often than bad ideas. 


Quote:I'd be much more likely to say "Who's the cute girl with the little Indian thingy" Than "omg what a bitch, how can she be so insensitive?" even though I've talked to someone who has reasonably eloquently explained why my reaction should be more sombre. (sorry Tizheruk, that's not to undermine your position, but I think it's an honest representation of my actual reaction)

That's how I see it as well. To those who are upset by such things I just quote Bill Burr:  "I'm sorry you feel that way"
If god was real he wouldn't need middle men to explain his wants or do his bidding.
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RE: "Cultural Appropriation"
(June 26, 2017 at 3:40 pm)Crunchy Wrote:
Quote:bennyboy Wrote:
Yeah, you know, I'm trying to get inside Tizheruk's skin, for two reasons: 1) I think the native population is way under-represented; 2) a LOT of people are crying about various forms of cultural appropriation, and my natural reaction is to tell them to fuck off and get a life. But I'm really trying to see something there, to see that these people have a valid point, and to better myself through it.

That's a great way to look at it and you're right to want to try and understand.
BUT, just because something is upsetting to someone, it doesn't follow that that is proof positive that something bad is going on. Feelings are not always rational and hurt feelings are not always warranted.
If people find some artifact or musical style or clothing to their liking and they start to "appropriate" it, what's the real harm
The "real harm"..is in air-quoting that and not mentioning all of the harm that is required for something to -be- cultural appropriation. To ignore the discussion entirely, talk about something else, and pretend until you;re blue in the face that it either never happened, or was a good thing™.

The harm has a name.  Racial apathy.  It's the new genteel racism.

Quote:There are so many examples of good things that have come from cultural appropriation. The sauna, tea, rock and roll, democracy... Maybe I'm just being optimistic but good ideas get appropriated far more often than bad ideas. 
Well, as long as we got something nifty out of it, no harm...no foul. Just look at all of this cool shit!   Look at all of these sweet, sweet profits - and all we had to do was exploit some browns? Deal. Rolleyes
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: "Cultural Appropriation"
(June 26, 2017 at 3:44 pm)Khemikal Wrote:
(June 26, 2017 at 3:40 pm)Crunchy Wrote: That's a great way to look at it and you're right to want to try and understand.
BUT, just because something is upsetting to someone, it doesn't follow that that is proof positive that something bad is going on. Feelings are not always rational and hurt feelings are not always warranted.
If people find some artifact or musical style or clothing to their liking and they start to "appropriate" it, what's the real harm
The "real harm"..is in air-quoting that and not mentioning all of the harm that is required for something to -be- cultural appropriation. To ignore the discussion entirely, talk about something else, and pretend until you;re blue in the face that it either never happened, or was a good thing™.

The harm has a name.  Racial apathy.  It's the new genteel racism.

Quote:There are so many examples of good things that have come from cultural appropriation. The sauna, tea, rock and roll, democracy... Maybe I'm just being optimistic but good ideas get appropriated far more often than bad ideas. 
Well, as long as we got something nifty out of it, no harm...no foul. Just look at all of this cool shit!   Look at all of these sweet, sweet profits - and all we had to do was exploit some browns? Deal. Rolleyes

The right answer is that there is no harm in cultural appropriation in and of itself.
There's harm in exploitation, stealing, vandalism and so on, but there's no harm in a black person wearing a kilt, a white person playing the blues, or a Nigerian singing an Abba song.

As long as there's no actual theft, vandalism, or exploitation going on it's fine.

And you can't steal culture. And you if in anyway you can every culture is guilty of it.


Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.

Impersonation is treason.





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RE: "Cultural Appropriation"
(June 26, 2017 at 6:21 pm)paulpablo Wrote:
(June 26, 2017 at 3:44 pm)Khemikal Wrote: The "real harm"..is in air-quoting that and not mentioning all of the harm that is required for something to -be- cultural appropriation. To ignore the discussion entirely, talk about something else, and pretend until you;re blue in the face that it either never happened, or was a good thing™.

The harm has a name.  Racial apathy.  It's the new genteel racism.

Well, as long as we got something nifty out of it, no harm...no foul. Just look at all of this cool shit!   Look at all of these sweet, sweet profits - and all we had to do was exploit some browns?  Deal. Rolleyes

The right answer is that there is no harm in cultural appropriation in and of itself.
There's harm in exploitation, stealing, vandalism and so on, but there's no harm in a black person wearing a kilt, a white person playing the blues, or a Nigerian singing an Abba song.

As long as there's no actual theft, vandalism, or exploitation going on it's fine.  

And you can't steal culture. And you if in anyway you can every culture is guilty of it.

I have no problem with black men wearing kilts.


I've been a long time fan of the Scotty Skirt.



They can wear sporrans too . . . .
 The granting of a pardon is an imputation of guilt, and the acceptance a confession of it. 




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RE: "Cultural Appropriation"
(June 26, 2017 at 3:44 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Well, as long as we got something nifty out of it, no harm...no foul. Just look at all of this cool shit!   Look at all of these sweet, sweet profits - and all we had to do was exploit some browns?  Deal. Rolleyes

I think for sure we have to consider our effect on others-- that's the essence of morality, right? I think as privileged Westerners we have some responsibility to mediate our own privilege with concern for others. But I also find it ironic that many of the people crying about cultural appropriation over dreadlocks or dreamcatchers probably own at least 20 items made by Asian children in sweatshops who are STILL facing serious poverty and hunger.

Anyway, to what degree do we have to feel responsibility for the actions of others, or for the sensitivities of others? I'm a European-native Heinz 57 Canadian-born guy living in Korea. I have in both my blood and my cultural experience so much stuff that I couldn't be aware of it if I tried, and I don't care enough really to try tbh.

Should I refuse to listen to white blues bands because blues couldn't have existed without slavery? What if I can find black people who are really serious about the issue, and every time they hear white boys play blues, it breaks their heart and challenges them to the center of their cores? At what point can I drop the history and just say, "Dude, Led Zeppelin rocks!" or whatever?
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RE: "Cultural Appropriation"
(June 6, 2017 at 9:26 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Am I the only one here who's bothered by this term and by the growing SJW culture behind it?  I really think that there's a new fascism of the left, in which how we SHOULD think about things doesn't have to match how things actually are.

I think treating everything with complete irreverence is helpful. Knocking stuff down so it doesn't get to feel superior without rising to the challenge and actually demonstrating it.
Religions were invented to impress and dupe illiterate, superstitious stone-age peasants. So in this modern, enlightened age of information, what's your excuse? Or are you saying with all your advantages, you were still tricked as easily as those early humans?

---

There is no better way to convey the least amount of information in the greatest amount of words than to try explaining your religious views.
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RE: "Cultural Appropriation"
(June 26, 2017 at 6:23 pm)vorlon13 Wrote: I have no problem with black men wearing kilts.
I've been a long time fan of the Scotty Skirt.
They can wear sporrans too . . . .

I vote we voluntarily dis-appropriate the kilt just so we don't have to listen to vorlon talk about anal sex yet again! We should also start a thread about SPECIES appropriation, specifically stealing the sexual practices of bears. Stop it! Tongue
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RE: "Cultural Appropriation"
(June 26, 2017 at 6:25 pm)bennyboy Wrote: I think for sure we have to consider our effect on others-- that's the essence of morality, right?  
I doubt that much else would be required to reduce the mistrust that our history has created.  I already mentioned in thread that no one is getting any acres, any mules, or any royalty checks.  Not me, not you, not them. No one.


Quote:I think as privileged Westerners we have some responsibility to mediate our own privilege with concern for others.  But I also find it ironic that many of the people crying about cultural appropriation over dreadlocks or dreamcatchers probably own at least 20 items made by Asian children in sweatshops who are STILL facing serious poverty and hunger.

Anyway, to what degree do we have to feel responsibility for the actions of others, or for the sensitivities of others?  I'm a European-native Heinz 57 Canadian-born guy living in Korea.  I have in both my blood and my cultural experience so much stuff that I couldn't be aware of it if I tried, and I don't care enough really to try tbh.

Should I refuse to listen to white blues bands because blues couldn't have existed without slavery?  What if I can find black people who are really serious about the issue, and every time they hear white boys play blues, it breaks their heart and challenges them to the center of their cores?  At what point can I drop the history and just say, "Dude, Led Zeppelin rocks!" or whatever?
So...how many acres, mules, royalty checks and other assorted absurdia do you owe?  I don't know - you'll have to consult a racial accountant.  Opinions vary from:

"Not a damn thing, look at all the cool shit we got!"
to
"Throw money at their faces!"

Can't imagine why anyone would feel that this was insult added to injury, Can you?   Wink

There is no "new facism of the left" Benny. That's just a shiny that bigots are hoping will distract people long enough for them to get some more genteel bigotry done. It's going to work, it already works, it always worked.

"God, we already granted them freedom, now they want to vote, to be paid a fair wage, to sit at the same table? These niggers want everything..and those nigger lovers are trying to force us to give it to them. Fascists!"
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: "Cultural Appropriation"
(June 26, 2017 at 7:01 pm)Khemikal Wrote:
(June 26, 2017 at 6:25 pm)bennyboy Wrote: I think for sure we have to consider our effect on others-- that's the essence of morality, right?  
I doubt that much else would be required to reduce the mistrust that our history has created.  I already mentioned in thread that no one is getting any acres, any mules, or any royalty checks.  Not me, not you, not them.  No one.  


Quote:I think as privileged Westerners we have some responsibility to mediate our own privilege with concern for others.  But I also find it ironic that many of the people crying about cultural appropriation over dreadlocks or dreamcatchers probably own at least 20 items made by Asian children in sweatshops who are STILL facing serious poverty and hunger.

Anyway, to what degree do we have to feel responsibility for the actions of others, or for the sensitivities of others?  I'm a European-native Heinz 57 Canadian-born guy living in Korea.  I have in both my blood and my cultural experience so much stuff that I couldn't be aware of it if I tried, and I don't care enough really to try tbh.

Should I refuse to listen to white blues bands because blues couldn't have existed without slavery?  What if I can find black people who are really serious about the issue, and every time they hear white boys play blues, it breaks their heart and challenges them to the center of their cores?  At what point can I drop the history and just say, "Dude, Led Zeppelin rocks!" or whatever?
So...how many acres, mules, royalty checks and other assorted absurdia do you owe?  I don't know - you'll have to consult a racial accountant.  Opinions vary from:

"Not a damn thing, look at all the cool shit we got!"
to
"Throw money at their faces!"

Can't imagine why anyone would feel that this was insult added to injury, Can you?   Wink

There is no "new facism of the left" Benny.  That's just a shiny that bigots are hoping will distract people long enough for them to get some more genteel bigotry done.  It's going to work, it already works, it always worked.

"God, we already granted them freedom, now they want to vote, to be paid a fair wage, to sit at the same table?  These niggers want everything..and those nigger lovers are trying to force us to give it to them.  Fascists!"

I like South Park's take on it; that it's all so frat boys can crush pussy.
Religions were invented to impress and dupe illiterate, superstitious stone-age peasants. So in this modern, enlightened age of information, what's your excuse? Or are you saying with all your advantages, you were still tricked as easily as those early humans?

---

There is no better way to convey the least amount of information in the greatest amount of words than to try explaining your religious views.
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