A Question From Atheists

[downbeatplumb]

You say you believe but have no idea what god is but suggest it may be the universe.

Most definitions of god have it as some kind of powerful sentient being.

The universe displays none of those characteristics. I may as well call my left testicle the repository of all truth. It may have none of the things in common with a repository of truth but apparently that's good enough for you.

You are right what I said is nonsensical, but there is small point that it can suggest, A LOT of people have identified God with the Universe. That might account as sort of a weak evidence for someone to be intrigued about it and dedicates some time and effort to read and think about the concept before rejecting it. That's all. I think there is no other point in all that I said. I don't know what God is, but that mere word is the thing that has brought us here, isn't it?

The thing that brought me here was the fascinating spectacle of believers. A friend said, "you wont believe what this fellow believes" I looked, was amused and stayed ever since.

[nosferatu323]

I'm trying to approach the subject with a modicum of intellectual integrity.

I'm trying to approach the subject with a modicum of intellectual integrity.

I think when you throw the woo there, there is no way you can make sense out of it and if we remove it we can only talk about "science". I think we can converse some "interesting" or even "fascinating" ideas. But nothing more. What sort of conclusion are you looking for? it'd help a lot to give the discussion a more specific direction. I think the best conclusion can be:

• Either totally rejecting with certainty the oneness thing and go live our life.
  
• Or accepting it with some doubt and go doing our own brand of practices  to see if it is true and don't stop until we cease to exist or we reach the first conclusion and return to our "normal" life
  

First conclusion is desirable but unfortunately impossible to reach before the second conclusion. Or maybe it is not impossible?

It seems as though we're attempting to talk about something distinct from that...and, again, I'm trying to figure out what that might be, and why it doesn't manifest itself as we would expect, either while we are meditating..while we have a dissociative break, while we're sleeping, or while we're driving a bus. 

I meant the stage of deep sleep when there are no dreams. The "I" is clearly absent. When the "I" returns (in a dream or when it wakes up) obviously it has no perception of the stage in which it wasn't present, since "I" was dead during that period. Oneness with the universe is a woo, it doesn't mean anything, "Oneness with universe" assumes being one and being separate with the universe at the same time which is clearly nonsensical.

Every attempt to describe what we are referring to as "Oneness with universe" is essentially nonsense. My assertion that "Oneness is nonsensical" is nonsensical itself, since the subject of it does not have any actual referent. So let it be that way "Oneness with the universe" nothing more. I don't think we can dig in it and play our language games with it. It'll be pointless and can even be dangerous. Because it can create a seemingly real delusion for us.

What is verifiable, is that people claim to possess an ability, or that some effect can be achieved.  What i also verifiable, is that those same people cannot do what they say can be done.  That what would happen, what would manifest itself as a verifiable effect -of- the claimed attribute or ability...just doesn't seem to be happening like we would expect.

Every person who claims "he is one with universe" is uttering nonsense and should be ignored. Since the "I" will be non-existent, it cannot say "I'm one with the universe" Prophet's always said "God sent me" they never said I'm god. A person can say "Universe is putting these words in my mouth to tell you not to kill each other" in this sense we are all prophets. So all the claims that people have about oneness with the Universe must be mere delusions. The promised Messiah will come when you realize you are the promised Messiah. 

It's not really that hard to start getting delusional. Meditation is a very powerful tool. With some practice you will find yourself dreaming while awake. You can dream of anything of course, specially dreaming about the oneness with the Universe. Using some drugs is a faster method.

I think the "I" is not actually dropped for anyone, perception of a dropped "I" is what is being experienced by drug users, practitioners of meditation, spiritual ecstasies experienced by many religious individuals, etc. They all have their fantasies of a dropped I. Since this "oneness" thing seems to be somewhere deep in the genes, it always appears in our wildest fantasies. All our myths, although our literature, etc.

I think the "malfunction thing" is also not a matter of semi-serious discussion. Since it's entirely based upon a non-sensical, yet intriguing concept of "Oneness with Universe". So I suggest we stop at this point. Do you think we can make any sense out of it by continuing talking about it?

[Astonished]

You say you believe but have no idea what god is but suggest it may be the universe.

Most definitions of god have it as some kind of powerful sentient being.

The universe displays none of those characteristics. I may as well call my left testicle the repository of all truth. It may have none of the things in common with a repository of truth but apparently that's good enough for you.

You are right what I said is nonsensical, but there is small point that it can suggest, A LOT of people have identified God with the Universe. That might account as sort of a weak evidence for someone to be intrigued about it and dedicates some time and effort to read and think about the concept before rejecting it. That's all. I think there is no other point in all that I said. I don't know what God is, but that mere word is the thing that has brought us here, isn't it?

No, it doesn't. That it could even be expressed in that sentence is troubling to say the least (and you're also committing an argument ad populum fallacy. If all but 1 of the 7 billion people in the world believes 2+2=5, they're still wrong). It shows zero critical thinking. You don't start with the assumption of sky woo. You start with what's here and is observable and testable. If you find a mystery, you wonder what the solution to the mystery is, maybe even try to find it. You don't make up a name for it and ascribe any number of attributes to it.

[nosferatu323]

You are right what I said is nonsensical, but there is small point that it can suggest, A LOT of people have identified God with the Universe. That might account as sort of a weak evidence for someone to be intrigued about it and dedicates some time and effort to read and think about the concept before rejecting it. That's all. I think there is no other point in all that I said. I don't know what God is, but that mere word is the thing that has brought us here, isn't it?

No, it doesn't. That it could even be expressed in that sentence is troubling to say the least (and you're also committing an argument ad populum fallacy. If all but 1 of the 7 billion people in the world believes 2+2=5, they're still wrong). It shows zero critical thinking. You don't start with the assumption of sky woo. You start with what's here and is observable and testable. If you find a mystery, you wonder what the solution to the mystery is, maybe even try to find it. You don't make up a name for it and ascribe any number of attributes to it.

You are absolutely right. That might was a reference to people who cannot "see" what you are saying. No matter how much they try, they feel somehow troubled not to go after some kind of delusion. I might be of this kind. I'm trying to get rid of the delusion, actually trying the belief to get rid of it. You see you have look very carefully to see that all that there is are shadows, there is no one following you. So you can go on in peace. I tried many other ways,  none of the worked. I always felt I'm somehow troubled, so I decided to give a try and do the leap of faith to jump into the belief and cut it's head and return to live peacefully.

[Mister Agenda]

Living peacefully is not such a bad goal. If you lean to Buddhism, attachment to God is as problematic as most other attachments, in that it doesn't help you to achieve peace; and in Buddhism, if there is a God, it may also be suffering from attachment.

[The Grand Nudger]

I think when you throw the woo there, there is no way you can make sense out of it and if we remove it we can only talk about "science". I think we can converse some "interesting" or even "fascinating" ideas. But nothing more. What sort of conclusion are you looking for?

One which helps this purported ability, and the absence of any noticeable effect, make sense.  To make it remotely plausible, at least..and take it out of the realm of abject fantasy.

it'd help a lot to give the discussion a more specific direction. I think the best conclusion can be:

• Either totally rejecting with certainty the oneness thing and go live our life.
  
• Or accepting it with some doubt and go doing our own brand of practices  to see if it is true and don't stop until we cease to exist or we reach the first conclusion and return to our "normal" life
  

First conclusion is desirable but unfortunately impossible to reach before the second conclusion. Or maybe it is not impossible?

.....?  I'm just trying to find this stuff that you say is happening, or has happened or could happen.  If someone told you there was a pot of gold on their crotch...would you stuff your hand down their pants....?

Me, I'd ask to see at least one coin first....I'm a haggler.  

I meant the stage of deep sleep when there are no dreams. The "I" is clearly absent. When the "I" returns (in a dream or when it wakes up) obviously it has no perception of the stage in which it wasn't present, since "I" was dead during that period. Oneness with the universe is a woo, it doesn't mean anything, "Oneness with universe" assumes being one and being separate with the universe at the same time which is clearly nonsensical.

There is no factually accurate way to claim that you are dead when you are sleeping.  Further,  deep sleep -still- does not satisfy the claimed attributes of this ability.  I find it difficult to believe that a person achieves enlightenment everytime they start to snore really...really loud.  

Every attempt to describe what we are referring to as "Oneness with universe" is essentially nonsense. My assertion that "Oneness is nonsensical" is nonsensical itself, since the subject of it does not have any actual referent. So let it be that way "Oneness with the universe" nothing more. I don't think we can dig in it and play our language games with it. It'll be pointless and can even be dangerous. Because it can create a seemingly real delusion for us.

It doesn't have to be a game.  You said there was pudding, I just want to see the pudding before I put whatever you;re giving me into my mouth.  I'm sure you can understand?  

Every person who claims "he is one with universe" is uttering nonsense and should be ignored. Since the "I" will be non-existent, it cannot say "I'm one with the universe" Prophet's always said "God sent me" they never said I'm god. A person can say "Universe is putting these words in my mouth to tell you not to kill each other" in this sense we are all prophets. So all the claims that people have about oneness with the Universe must be mere delusions. The promised Messiah will come when you realize you are the promised Messiah. 

I'm about as interested in prophecy as I am in demonic possession.  Really, do you entirely lack the ablity to focus in on your own comments?  You own claims?  

It's not really that hard to start getting delusional. Meditation is a very powerful tool.

I think you're overselling it again.

With some practice you will find yourself dreaming while awake. You can dream of anything of course, specially dreaming about the oneness with the Universe. Using some drugs is a faster method.

.........................................................

I think the "I" is not actually dropped for anyone, perception of a dropped "I" is what is being experienced by drug users, practitioners of meditation, spiritual ecstasies experienced by many religious individuals, etc. They all have their fantasies of a dropped I. Since this "oneness" thing seems to be somewhere deep in the genes, it always appears in our wildest fantasies. All our myths, although our literature, etc.

Okay, and we have some idea as to how drug users might produce that experience.  So...how does meditation do it, and why doesn't it happen like colds happen - like sprained ankles happen, like choking on food happens ?  

I think the "malfunction thing" is also not a matter of semi-serious discussion. Since it's entirely based upon a non-sensical, yet intriguing concept of "Oneness with Universe". So I suggest we stop at this point. Do you think we can make any sense out of it by continuing talking about it?

......

If I drew up a list of claims that you have since retracted after much..much bullshitting....what would be left of your posts?

[nosferatu323]

Living peacefully is not such a bad goal. If you lean to Buddhism, attachment to God is as problematic as most other attachments, in that it doesn't help you to achieve peace; and in Buddhism, if there is a God, it may also be suffering from attachment.

I find what you say to be true. But how do I release from the attachment? I find my self unable to release myself. Can you help me?

---

nosferatu323
[quote pid='1575274' dateline='1498505445']
It doesn't have to be a game.  You said there was pudding, I just want to see the pudding before I put whatever you;re giving me into my mouth.  I'm sure you can understand?  

[/quote]

I think I understand. The only thing that I'm certain about is that I cannot show you, or give you anything sensible. I know this sounds stupid. My bad. Hopefully this will be my last post talking about and making claims about something woo.

I didn't have this perspective when I started the thread, I genuinely had the impression that I can make some sort of sense out of it. But now that I look at it it has been all nonsense. At least I learned that and I really appreciate your and others time to give me the opportunity to arrive at this conclusion. 

Hope you keep smiling reading my (hopefully) last nonsense.

[Mister Agenda]

Not a Buddhist myself. I'm quite attached to my attachments. If it's something you're interested in, find the nearest Buddhist temple and inquire within. :-)

[The Grand Nudger]

Ugh, then you'd have to deal with all those buddhists!  Maryjane.  Just keep loading the bowl until you forget that you're not one with everything.  Pretty much the same thing, right?

[Astonished]

Ugh, then you'd have to deal with all those buddhists!  Maryjane.  Just keep loading the bowl until you forget that you're not one with everything.  Pretty much the same thing, right?

It seems to me like if you're Buddhist you'd have to believe in some kind of afterlife, otherwise you'd have really wasted the only life you have not developing attachments.