Can a Chrisitan lose his/her salvation?

[mordant]

No matter in which language the bible was originally written, I think we can all agree that it has been translated so many times that the original meaning of what the book was supposed to convey is most likely lost in translation.

I really don't understand this line of argument, which seems to be increasingly popular with my fellow unbelievers. It is overdetermined and unnecessary.

The Bible is not a translation of a translation of a translation ... etc. It is translated from manuscripts that are copies of copies of copies in the original languages, which is a different issue. Each credible translation is based on a corpus of the best available / most ancient manuscripts, a corpus which tends to improve over time as more ancient manuscript copies are discovered and digitally preserved. Older manuscripts tend to be more fragmentary and may, for example, represent a fragment of two sentences that can be compared to a more complete but newer (and therefore later generation) manuscript.

If you are objecting to the original manuscripts being far removed from the originals, that is legitimate and you should use that terminology. If you're objecting to translations of translations then you are simply not correct, sorry.

I am not here to defend the scriptures by any means but at the same time I don't want to see arguments mounted that are incorrect or use misleading terminology so that theists will have reason to critique us (legitimately in this particular case) for illiteracy about the provenance of scripture.

There is plenty wrong with scripture at every level without claiming people are translating translations, e.g., taking the KJV and using it as the basis for some other translation. That simply doesn't happen.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

Contrast this with Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Coptic Christianity and the Protestant Armenian school of thought that says that a person can sin to the point that he/she forfeits eternal life.

It also contrasts with the doctrine of Universal Reconciliation (UR), or apokatastasis which states that all men will eventually be saved. Unlike "once saved always saved" this theological notion has roots back much further but has been a minority position and more of an expressed hope than a guarantee until the rise if Christian Universalism in the 19th century.

It also contrasts with the annihilationism (e.g., modern Anglicans, Christadelphians, Seventh Day Adventists) who state that the unsaved simply cease to exist at death, that the unregenerate are simply destroyed, not sent to eternal perdition.

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The original Bible was written in Latin.  All of the Greek language Bibles are translations.  And your Greek text is in Modern Greek.

The original manuscripts of the OT are in Hebrew, the NT in Greek. The Latin Vulgate was an early translation from those originals. You have it exactly backwards. Where did you get such a notion?

You couldn't produce an authentic complete copy of a 2,000 year Hebrew & Greek biblical manuscripts if your life depended on it.  They were all written after the year 700 A.D.  The most that you can do is show bits and pieces of ragged barely legible fakes.

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No matter in which language the bible was originally written, I think we can all agree that it has been translated so many times that the original meaning of what the book was supposed to convey is most likely lost in translation.

That's not exactly true.  All of the Bible versions contain the same basic stories, except for the Protestant Bibles that deleted 14 books.  Some versions do omit certain ideas and whole verses, which does change the doctrine.  And you can also determine when a particular version was written by the words it uses.  For instance, any Bible that contains the word "Jesus" was written after 1632.  Any Bible that does no contain the Apocrypha was published after 1881.  

Some Bibles (29 English language Bibles) are missing Acts 8:37.  This is important because Acts 8:37 says that you have to believe with all of your heart in order to be baptized.  By omitting that verse it allows for infants to be baptized.

[Silver]

That's not exactly true.  All of the Bible versions contain the same basic stories, except for the Protestant Bibles that deleted 14 books.  Some versions do omit certain ideas and whole verses, which does change the doctrine.  And you can also determine when a particular version was written by the words it uses.  For instance, any Bible that contains the word "Jesus" was written after 1632.  Any Bible that does no contain the Apocrypha was published after 1881.  

Some Bibles (29 English language Bibles) are missing Acts 8:37.  This is important because Acts 8:37 says that you have to believe with all of your heart in order to be baptized.  By omitting that verse it allows for infants to be baptized.

It kind of makes sense. Religion has to evolve to meet the standards of an evolving society.

In a time when most people were illiterate, certainly is was easier to manipulate the people.

Yet, even today, with high literacy rates, people are still duped by religion, and upon further reflection perhaps that is due to lack of critical thinking skills.

After all, the way school curriculum is now designed, students no longer really learn anything. They're not taught to think critically.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

That's not exactly true.  All of the Bible versions contain the same basic stories, except for the Protestant Bibles that deleted 14 books.  Some versions do omit certain ideas and whole verses, which does change the doctrine.  And you can also determine when a particular version was written by the words it uses.  For instance, any Bible that contains the word "Jesus" was written after 1632.  Any Bible that does no contain the Apocrypha was published after 1881.  

Some Bibles (29 English language Bibles) are missing Acts 8:37.  This is important because Acts 8:37 says that you have to believe with all of your heart in order to be baptized.  By omitting that verse it allows for infants to be baptized.

It kind of makes sense.  Religion has to evolve to meet the standards of an evolving society.

In a time when most people were illiterate, certainly is was easier to manipulate the people.

Yet, even today, with high literacy rates, people are still duped by religion, and upon further reflection perhaps that is due to lack of critical thinking skills.

Religions are very big businesses.  They employ millions of people in all sectors of the world economy.  So countless people have direct interest in keeping them going.  Religions will change in order to keep the herd from escaping.  If Christianity hadn't changed women would be wearing burkas and veils when they go to church instead of jeans and tank tops.  https://tanyamoutzalias.files.wordpress....114_01.jpg

http://www.bricktestament.com/epistles/o...11_04.html  13 pictures

[Drich]

The doctrine of "eternal security" is the question at hand here.  Like the Rapture, this idea is completely new on the Christian radar screen, having descended out of John Calvin's idea of "double predestination".  Whereas Calvin taught that some (infants included) were predestined for Heaven ("the Elect") he also taught that some (infants included) where predestined for Hell ("the reprobate").  Eternal security retains some of Calvin's ideas, in that the doctrine states, "Once saved, always saved", that upon praying the "Jesus, please forgive me..." prayer a believer is, hence-after, eternally secure and can never forfeit his/her salvation.  Many, of course, will claim that apostates (such as me) were never truly saved to begin with...

Contrast this with Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Coptic Christianity and the Protestant Armenian school of thought that says that a person can sin to the point that he/she forfeits eternal life.

This thread is principally for believers only, but as one of the resident apostate atheists here, I shall be defending the traditional position that one, can, indeed, forfeit eternal life, even though I do not believe in any such notion of the survival of one's consciousness after the death of one's brain.

IF you want to know what the bible says... Salvation is always pointed to as a future event till the time of judgement. through out everything Jesus taught and even throughout the epistles "you will be saved, those who have faith shall be saved, Jesus will save those who... It's not till we get to the book of revelation and out final judgement that salvation happened. Meaning we are saved from judgement/God's wrath. So in essence there is nothing in this life to be saved from. Christians (i've always said this) are no different than anyone else while we are alve. Matter of fact we do not have the right to identify as saved not saved exct, as only Jesus can make that determination. Which will be made upon judgement. In the first century we seem to know this but late (self righteousness) had us step into the role of salvation elevating us above our sinful brothers unrightfully. Why? because As Jesus points out in MAt 5 only He gets to determine who is and is not Christian. Christ is not a respector of the titles we give ourselves.

That said I have always said there will be far more Muslim, gays, deists, and far fewer 'christians' in heaven than what most people think. Because again Christ decideds who is saved and who is not. not blind tradition and ceremony.

[JackRussell]

The doctrine of "eternal security" is the question at hand here.  Like the Rapture, this idea is completely new on the Christian radar screen, having descended out of John Calvin's idea of "double predestination".  Whereas Calvin taught that some (infants included) were predestined for Heaven ("the Elect") he also taught that some (infants included) where predestined for Hell ("the reprobate").  Eternal security retains some of Calvin's ideas, in that the doctrine states, "Once saved, always saved", that upon praying the "Jesus, please forgive me..." prayer a believer is, hence-after, eternally secure and can never forfeit his/her salvation.  Many, of course, will claim that apostates (such as me) were never truly saved to begin with...

Contrast this with Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Coptic Christianity and the Protestant Armenian school of thought that says that a person can sin to the point that he/she forfeits eternal life.

This thread is principally for believers only, but as one of the resident apostate atheists here, I shall be defending the traditional position that one, can, indeed, forfeit eternal life, even though I do not believe in any such notion of the survival of one's consciousness after the death of one's brain.

IF you want to know what the bible says... Salvation is always pointed to as a future event till the time of judgement. through out everything Jesus taught and even throughout the epistles "you will be saved, those who have faith shall be saved, Jesus will save those who... It's not till we get to the book of revelation and out final judgement that salvation happened. Meaning we are saved from judgement/God's wrath. So in essence there is nothing in this life to be saved from. Christians (i've always said this) are no different than anyone else while we are alve. Matter of fact we do not have the right to identify as saved not saved exct, as only Jesus can make that determination. Which will be made upon judgement. In the first century we seem to know this but late (self righteousness) had us step into the role of salvation elevating us above our sinful brothers unrightfully. Why? because As Jesus points out in MAt 5 only He gets to determine who is and is not Christian. Christ is not a respector of the titles we give ourselves.

That said I have always said there will be far more Muslim, gays, deists, and far fewer 'christians' in heaven than what most people think. Because again Christ decideds who is saved and who is not. not blind tradition and ceremony.

Yeah,and you have the inside track.

Let me know how you're sure you're not just talking to yourself.

I hace A/S/K'd, silence.

Your manual fixes a different motor, the one you own and nobody else wants, the insurance is too high and the monthly payments don't add up.

You are just a salesman with an unwanted product. The market decides.

[Catholic_Lady]

Absolutely. Heaven is the state of being when your heart is completely pure. If you have darkness in your heart you will be in Purgatory until you have reached the state of perfect grace. Hell is when you have no will to reach it, and so you never do (hence why we say Hell is permanent).

So of course, I believe Hell/Purgatory can happen to anyone regardless of religious title. It just depends on what's in your heart.

[JackRussell]

Absolutely. Heaven is the state of being when your heart is completely pure. If you have darkness in your heart you will be in Purgatory until you have reached the state of perfect grace. Hell is when you have no will to reach it, and so you never do (hence why we say Hell is permanent).

So of course, I believe Hell/Purgatory can happen to anyone regardless of religious title. It just depends on what's in your heart.

I think it's just blood on an interesting journey to get more oxygen.

Brain states are more relevant to this, and they are often confused.

[Drich]

IF you want to know what the bible says... Salvation is always pointed to as a future event till the time of judgement. through out everything Jesus taught and even throughout the epistles "you will be saved, those who have faith shall be saved, Jesus will save those who... It's not till we get to the book of revelation and out final judgement that salvation happened. Meaning we are saved from judgement/God's wrath. So in essence there is nothing in this life to be saved from. Christians (i've always said this) are no different than anyone else while we are alve. Matter of fact we do not have the right to identify as saved not saved exct, as only Jesus can make that determination. Which will be made upon judgement. In the first century we seem to know this but late (self righteousness) had us step into the role of salvation elevating us above our sinful brothers unrightfully. Why? because As Jesus points out in MAt 5 only He gets to determine who is and is not Christian. Christ is not a respector of the titles we give ourselves.

That said I have always said there will be far more Muslim, gays, deists, and far fewer 'christians' in heaven than what most people think. Because again Christ decideds who is saved and who is not. not blind tradition and ceremony.

Yeah,and you have the inside track.

Let me know how you're sure you're not just talking to yourself.

I hace A/S/K'd, silence.

Your manual fixes a different motor, the one you own and nobody else wants, the insurance is too high and the monthly payments don't add up.

You are just a salesman with an unwanted product. The market decides.

A/S/K can never be used in the 'pastense' and have one 'done it right.'

You can ask

You can seek both in past tense but one can not knock 'pastence' and say he did it according to luke 11.

Why?

Because it's a process. Asking seeking has one build a house of faith, knocking has God test that faith. (Send the wind and rain to test the house and it's foundation) if you are not building the house of faith on the God/Rock/truth of who God is, your faith will fall as there are no other God's to help you.

Eventually if keep knocking what you have built/understand will have be proven true, and God will send the winds and rain that part of your belief system will be held true. and if you keep building more and more of what you understand will be proved to be true. Till one day IF God stood in front of you, you would be able to recognize Him.



That is the only reason you do not see God now. you have no idea what to look for, and when you do find Him you dismiss Him.

[Jehanne]

Absolutely. Heaven is the state of being when your heart is completely pure. If you have darkness in your heart you will be in Purgatory until you have reached the state of perfect grace. Hell is when you have no will to reach it, and so you never do (hence why we say Hell is permanent).

So of course, I believe Hell/Purgatory can happen to anyone regardless of religious title. It just depends on what's in your heart.

A lot of Catholics don't believe in Purgatory; they consider it to be a medieval myth.  I know that you'll quote the CCC on this, but Francis is going to revise that here soon, and so, Purgatory is likely to go the route that the Limbo of the Children went.

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Because again Christ decideds who is saved and who is not. not blind tradition and ceremony.

This sounds a lot like high Calvinism where Calvin taught that some individuals who perish in infancy were predestined to life eternal while others were predestined to perdition.