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July 19, 2017 at 2:21 pm (This post was last modified: July 19, 2017 at 2:24 pm by Huggy Bear.)
(July 19, 2017 at 1:47 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:
(July 19, 2017 at 1:12 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: And this is where every discussion on matters of religion (with atheists) ultimately end up...
I didn't start the OP, you claimed the Bible stated something that it doesn't, whether or not you believe god exists has no bearing to what the Bible actually says or does not say.
If we were discussing what a dictionary says, would proving God exists be relevant to that? so why is it relevant in this case?
What it's like having a discussion with atheists when THEY bring up the subject of religion.
You say it says one thing which is very debatable and varies from translation to translation (why would a god make it so?), I say it says another. Are you arguing that the bible is not open to interpretation? If so, you should all be of one sect. However, the bible, in all of it's forms, is open to wild degrees of interpretation and christians are not of one belief/sect!
We are not discussing a dictionary but your preferred poorly written fantasy story. It is relevant in this case because it's the christians position the content of the book is of god and not fantasy. Back at ya, prove it.
If I speak to another christian and get different answer, then yours only becomes opinion (not truth?). Again, why would an ultimate god let it's words devolve into confusion, debate and discord? Answer, it would not. This is a fantasy story written by men.
What I said isn't debatable, I said the scripture you referenced does not specify any certain time period, YOU claimed it did... You can't debate something that is uncertain, and there is no way to interpret that scripture in a way where it is specifying a certain time.
If it is your position that that a certain time is specified, then show me where it is.
Furthermore there is no Christian anywhere that will argue that particular scripture states Jesus's second coming was supposed to have happened 2000 years ago.
Quote: Nevertheless the NIV says "body" instead of "hands"... this changes things how? seeing how Jesus was pierced though the hands, feet and side.
And of course it would never occur to some asshole like you that whoever wrote that later NT horseshit might not have known what it was supposed to say, huh? C'mon HUggy. Even you aren't that dense.
(July 19, 2017 at 1:47 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: You say it says one thing which is very debatable and varies from translation to translation (why would a god make it so?), I say it says another. Are you arguing that the bible is not open to interpretation? If so, you should all be of one sect. However, the bible, in all of it's forms, is open to wild degrees of interpretation and christians are not of one belief/sect!
We are not discussing a dictionary but your preferred poorly written fantasy story. It is relevant in this case because it's the christians position the content of the book is of god and not fantasy. Back at ya, prove it.
If I speak to another christian and get different answer, then yours only becomes opinion (not truth?). Again, why would an ultimate god let it's words devolve into confusion, debate and discord? Answer, it would not. This is a fantasy story written by men.
What I said isn't debatable, I said the scripture you referenced does not specify any certain time period, YOU claimed it did... You can't debate something that is uncertain, and there is no way to interpret that scripture in a way where it is specifying a certain time.
If it is your position that that a certain time is specified, then show me where it is.
Furthermore there is no Christian anywhere that will argue that particular scripture states Jesus's second coming was supposed to have happened 2000 years ago.
"Furthermore there is no Christian anywhere that will argue that particular scripture states Jesus's second coming was supposed to have happened 2000 years ago."
So Revelation 1:7 (ERV) is BS. = "7 Look, Jesus is coming with the clouds! Everyone will see him, even those who pierced him. All peoples of the earth will cry loudly because of him. Yes, this will happen! Amen."
July 19, 2017 at 2:42 pm (This post was last modified: July 19, 2017 at 3:08 pm by Huggy Bear.)
(July 19, 2017 at 1:37 pm)Inkfeather132 Wrote:
(July 19, 2017 at 1:25 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: Read chapter 12 of Zechariah and compare it to 13, they are speaking of the same event, there is no way that you can deny it it referring to the messiah.
That being said;
The NIV was published in the 1970's, The KJV is from 1611, in fact the NIV omits whole verses...
Nevertheless the NIV says "body" instead of "hands"... this changes things how? seeing how Jesus was pierced though the hands, feet and side.
Zechariah 13:
13 “On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity.
2 “On that day, I will banish the names of the idols from the land, and they will be remembered no more,” declares the Lord Almighty. “I will remove both the prophets and the spirit of impurity from the land. 3 And if anyone still prophesies, their father and mother, to whom they were born, will say to them, ‘You must die, because you have told lies in the Lord’s name.’ Then their own parents will stab the one who prophesies.
4 “On that day every prophet will be ashamed of their prophetic vision. They will not put on a prophet’s garment of hair in order to deceive. 5 Each will say, ‘I am not a prophet. I am a farmer; the land has been my livelihood since my youth.’ 6 If someone asks, ‘What are these wounds on your body?’ they will answer, ‘The wounds I was given at the house of my friends.’
Here it is. It is clearly not speaking of a messiah, it is talking about false prophets. Anyone who is interested may read it for themselves.
Who do you think the fountain open to the house of David is referring to? was not Jesus of the house of David? Did he not die to cleanse sin?
Also did you even bother reading chapter 12?
Quote:Zechariah 12
8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
Chapter 12 is clearly speaking of the messiah, chapter 13 is speaking of the exact same event, it just doesn't use a personal pronoun like chapter 12 does
(July 19, 2017 at 2:25 pm)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote: Nevertheless the NIV says "body" instead of "hands"... this changes things how? seeing how Jesus was pierced though the hands, feet and side.
And of course it would never occur to some asshole like you that whoever wrote that later NT horseshit might not have known what it was supposed to say, huh? C'mon HUggy. Even you aren't that dense.
Except you guys claim that the Bible is full of contradictions... Can't have it both ways so which is it?
(July 19, 2017 at 2:41 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote:
(July 19, 2017 at 2:21 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: What I said isn't debatable, I said the scripture you referenced does not specify any certain time period, YOU claimed it did... You can't debate something that is uncertain, and there is no way to interpret that scripture in a way where it is specifying a certain time.
If it is your position that that a certain time is specified, then show me where it is.
Furthermore there is no Christian anywhere that will argue that particular scripture states Jesus's second coming was supposed to have happened 2000 years ago.
"Furthermore there is no Christian anywhere that will argue that particular scripture states Jesus's second coming was supposed to have happened 2000 years ago."
So Revelation 1:7 (ERV) is BS. = "7 Look, Jesus is coming with the clouds! Everyone will see him, even those who pierced him. All peoples of the earth will cry loudly because of him. Yes, this will happen! Amen."
That isn't the scripture I was referring to...
Also you do realize that upon Jesus second coming he resurrects the dead right?
Furthermore there is no Christian anywhere that will argue that particular scripture states Jesus's second coming was supposed to have happened 2000 years ago.
Well, not living anyway. The dead however, that's another debatable story of fantasy.
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem.
July 19, 2017 at 3:56 pm (This post was last modified: July 19, 2017 at 3:57 pm by Inkfeather132.)
(July 19, 2017 at 2:42 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:
(July 19, 2017 at 1:37 pm)Inkfeather132 Wrote: Zechariah 13:
13 “On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity.
2 “On that day, I will banish the names of the idols from the land, and they will be remembered no more,” declares the Lord Almighty. “I will remove both the prophets and the spirit of impurity from the land. 3 And if anyone still prophesies, their father and mother, to whom they were born, will say to them, ‘You must die, because you have told lies in the Lord’s name.’ Then their own parents will stab the one who prophesies.
4 “On that day every prophet will be ashamed of their prophetic vision. They will not put on a prophet’s garment of hair in order to deceive. 5 Each will say, ‘I am not a prophet. I am a farmer; the land has been my livelihood since my youth.’ 6 If someone asks, ‘What are these wounds on your body?’ they will answer, ‘The wounds I was given at the house of my friends.’
Here it is. It is clearly not speaking of a messiah, it is talking about false prophets. Anyone who is interested may read it for themselves.
Who do you think the fountain open to the house of David is referring to? was not Jesus of the house of David? Did he not die to cleanse sin?
Also did you even bother reading chapter 12?
Quote:Zechariah 12
8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
Chapter 12 is clearly speaking of the messiah, chapter 13 is speaking of the exact same event, it just doesn't use a personal pronoun like chapter 12 does
We weren't talking about chapter 12, you specified chapter 13. The first verse is talking about the messiah, yes. But all the others are talking about false prophets, including the verse about wounds on the body.
4 “On that day every prophet will be ashamed of their prophetic vision. They will not put on a prophet’s garment of hair in order to deceive. 5 Each will say, ‘I am not a prophet. I am a farmer; the land has been my livelihood since my youth.’ 6 If someone asks, ‘What are these wounds on your body?’ they will answer, ‘The wounds I was given at the house of my friends.’
The Bible means nothing to me anyway, but it means even less when you blatantly twist it to mean whatever you want it to.
Being careful is for people who can't handle surprises.
(July 19, 2017 at 2:42 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: Who do you think the fountain open to the house of David is referring to? was not Jesus of the house of David? Did he not die to cleanse sin?
Also did you even bother reading chapter 12?
Chapter 12 is clearly speaking of the messiah, chapter 13 is speaking of the exact same event, it just doesn't use a personal pronoun like chapter 12 does
We weren't talking about chapter 12, you specified chapter 13. The first verse is talking about the messiah, yes. But all the others are talking about false prophets, including the verse about wounds on the body.
4 “On that day every prophet will be ashamed of their prophetic vision. They will not put on a prophet’s garment of hair in order to deceive. 5 Each will say, ‘I am not a prophet. I am a farmer; the land has been my livelihood since my youth.’ 6 If someone asks, ‘What are these wounds on your body?’ they will answer, ‘The wounds I was given at the house of my friends.’
The Bible means nothing to me anyway, but it means even less when you blatantly twist it to mean whatever you want it to.
In chapter 12 God clearly used a personal pronoun we he stated "they shall look upon me whom they have pierced", in no way is that making reference to any false prophet, both scripture are speaking of the same event; God clearly stated that he had been pierced \ wounded.
The Jews did not recognize Jesus Christ as the Messiah, hence why they called for his crucifixion. When they finally do recognize him they will want to know how he came to be wounded (after he had rose from the dead, he still had the wounds), to which he will reply that he was wounded in the house of his friends.
There is no twisting of scripture here, it's pretty clear.
July 19, 2017 at 10:30 pm (This post was last modified: July 19, 2017 at 10:33 pm by Wyrd of Gawd.)
(July 19, 2017 at 2:42 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:
(July 19, 2017 at 1:37 pm)Inkfeather132 Wrote: Zechariah 13:
13 “On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity.
2 “On that day, I will banish the names of the idols from the land, and they will be remembered no more,” declares the Lord Almighty. “I will remove both the prophets and the spirit of impurity from the land. 3 And if anyone still prophesies, their father and mother, to whom they were born, will say to them, ‘You must die, because you have told lies in the Lord’s name.’ Then their own parents will stab the one who prophesies.
4 “On that day every prophet will be ashamed of their prophetic vision. They will not put on a prophet’s garment of hair in order to deceive. 5 Each will say, ‘I am not a prophet. I am a farmer; the land has been my livelihood since my youth.’ 6 If someone asks, ‘What are these wounds on your body?’ they will answer, ‘The wounds I was given at the house of my friends.’
Here it is. It is clearly not speaking of a messiah, it is talking about false prophets. Anyone who is interested may read it for themselves.
Who do you think the fountain open to the house of David is referring to? was not Jesus of the house of David? Did he not die to cleanse sin?
Also did you even bother reading chapter 12?
Quote:Zechariah 12
8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
Chapter 12 is clearly speaking of the messiah, chapter 13 is speaking of the exact same event, it just doesn't use a personal pronoun like chapter 12 does
(July 19, 2017 at 2:25 pm)Minimalist Wrote: And of course it would never occur to some asshole like you that whoever wrote that later NT horseshit might not have known what it was supposed to say, huh? C'mon HUggy. Even you aren't that dense.
Except you guys claim that the Bible is full of contradictions... Can't have it both ways so which is it?
(July 19, 2017 at 2:41 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: "Furthermore there is no Christian anywhere that will argue that particular scripture states Jesus's second coming was supposed to have happened 2000 years ago."
So Revelation 1:7 (ERV) is BS. = "7 Look, Jesus is coming with the clouds! Everyone will see him, even those who pierced him. All peoples of the earth will cry loudly because of him. Yes, this will happen! Amen."
Quote:That isn't the scripture I was referring to...
Also you do realize that upon Jesus second coming he resurrects the dead right?
Do you have a passage for that? The fairy tale says that everyone is resurrected on Judgment Day. In the fairy tale Yeshua returns as a dictator, gets tossed, destroys the world and kills all life.
(July 19, 2017 at 3:49 am)Godscreated Wrote: This was to reference that John was a representative of who Elijah was.
Not according to Jesus. In Matthew 11:14 Jesus says J.B. is the Elijah. Not representative, but Elijah himself and yet in John 1:21 They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” He answered, “No.”
But I guess you know more then Jesus.
In Matthew 11:14 Jesus doesn't say John the Baptist is Elijah. Malachi prophesied that Elijah would lead the way of the Lord, 3rd chapter of Malachi. Malachi was not saying that Elijah himself would be born as John, he was saying John as a prophet would be like Elijah as a prophet. Luke 1:14 says, this is the angel speaking to Zechariah about his son John, "And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth, 15 for he will be great before the Lord. And he must not drink wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, Even from his mother's womb. 16 And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God, and he (John) will go before him (Jesus) in the spirit and power of Elijah,..... The angel foretells this before the birth of John. Then in the 1st chapter of John we are told, verse 19, And this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priest and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, 20)Who are you? He confessed and did not deny, but confessed, "I am not the Christ." 21) And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" He said, " I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered them, "No." 22) "Who are you? We need to give an answer to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?" He said, "I am the voice of one crying out in the wilderness, 'Make straight the way of the Lord,' as the prophet Isaiah said." Malachi tells us of this same man, Malachi 4:6 And he will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and hearts of the children to their fathers,.....
Jesus said, 14) and if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come,... Jesus was speaking of the prophesies of the OT that said John as a prophet would be like Elijah as a prophet.
(July 19, 2017 at 3:49 am)Godscreated Wrote: Christ is the one shepherd and the worlds Christians are His one flock.
FM Wrote:Oh, too bad no one told this to Catholics and Protestants in Ireland they might stop killing each other over "right" Jesus. For sure then the massacre in Greysteel, at Halloween 1993 could have been avoided when Protestants bursted into a Catholic pub, shouted "trick or treat," and opened fire, killing 8 and wounding 13. Or all over Christian history where millions of people were killed by Christians because they were "wrong" Christians like the Cathari and the Waldensians with pope's famous blessing "Kill them all; God will know his own." and all those Catholic-Protestant wars, just the Thirty Years War in the 1600s, killed half the population of Germany. So this is one blatant lie you're telling.
It's not Jesus fault that man wanted to run the church and that the Catholics wanted to eliminate the protestants because they were taking money and power from the Catolic church. What man does in the name of the Lord doesn't make their deeds right and in Ireland we have this very thing. Killings that Jesus did not tell them to do, as you said it was by order of the Pope, a man and nothing more. So my statement isn't a lie.
John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me." Jesus says His flock follows Him and hears His voice. Jesus did not kill His enemies when He was here on earth, nor did He preach to do such. Actually Jesus preach for us to love our enemies and give them their needs, doesn't sound at all like what went on in Europe now does it.
John 10:16 (Jesus speaking) "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd."
(July 19, 2017 at 3:49 am)Godscreated Wrote: When one is an eternal being 2000 years is less than a second.
FM Wrote:Or maybe just a desperate to delude yourself in order to believe that Jesus was legit god. Like I told you he made many false prophecies like being in Earth for 3 days and nights and yet he did not. Or lying his ass off to the thief that tomorrow he will be with him in paradise when he is supposed to be in ground. I mean this is not just an ordinary Jesus lie like when he said that mustard seed is the smallest one in the world, but he is actually lying to the dying man, giving him false hopes. How much lower can you get from that.
Jesus is God and you've given the verse that says so, no wonder you're the false messiah, you know nothing. Jesus was speaking about the spirit, His and the man's, their bodies were in the ground. the mustard seed was the smallest used to grow garden plants during that time and it worked as a great metaphor for the spiritual life. The man on the cross is in heaven waiting to be reunited with his new body.
FM Wrote:Even Jesus himself he is a cheat. In Mark he simply asks 10:18. "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God." Here we have a clear-cut statement by Jesus that his character is flawed and that he is not to be considered the model of propriety. We have it from his own mouth. What more could one want?
So no wonder he lies, like to the thief on the cross, or to the anyone around him like in John 7:8-10 he told some people to go to a feast and that he would not be going. The text states that he later went up, not in public, but in private. Or when he "predicted" in Matthew 17:12-13 that he will die in the same manner John the Baptist was killed. Needles to say one was beheaded in prison while the other one crucified.
Mark 10:18 is the verse I referred to in the bold above, you use it completely out of context calling Jesus a cheat. "Why do you call me good? Jesus asked him why he thought He was good, he was not saying He wasn't good. then Jesus says, No one is good except God alone." Jesus was trying to get the young man to understand He was God and had the power to see the future and to ask him to give up all his possessions. Jesus knew the young man would not sale his possessions and was able to teach the disciples about the devotion it takes to follow Him. Again it's no wonder you're called the false messiah.
John 7:8-10, There is a reason that Jesus told them He wasn't going, to protect them and stop the people from trying to kill Him. Jesus went incognito, so He wouldn't be recognized and show us the mode of the people. They asked the disciples where Jesus was and the could say He is in Galilee. How is this determination possible, by one simple statement Jesus made to His disciples when He sent them to the feast, "my time has not yet fully come." Jesus ministry was young and it was not time for Him to be killed.
Matthew 17:12-13, Jesus did not say that He would die the exact death John the Baptist died, He said that He also would die at the hands of the Jews. you must be looking this up on a site dedicated to making you look foolish, they are no better than you false messiahs. The scriptures say in the last days there will be many false messiahs, you should be ......., there's bad things reserved for false messiahs.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
