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The undeniable miracle at Fatima
#11
RE: The undeniable miracle at Fatima
C'mon guys, you can do better than just saying "denied". That's not an answer when there are so many testimonials. Here are a few from the book, "Meet the Witnesses". There are way more where this came from:

Maria Teresa of Chainca, a 59 year-old house wife, gave her deposition on February 6, 1960. She was standing about a hundred feet from the place of the apparitions in 1917:

“The sky was covered with clouds and it rained much. We could not see the sun. Then suddenly, at noon, the clouds drew away and the sun appeared as if it were trembling. It seemed to come down. It began spinning like a fire-wheel in the pagan feasts. It stopped for a few minutes and again started rolling, perhaps in a diameter of more than a meter while we could look at it as though it were the moon. Things all around turned into different colors.”
“Were you afraid?”
“I was afraid. I thought the sun would fall upon us.”
“Were your clothes wet before, then suddenly dry?”
“Yes.”
“When it was over, how did you feel?”
“I was relieved of a great fright I had felt. I resolved to lead a better life and to amend for my sins.”


Carlos de Azevedo Mendes, from Torres Novas, was a successful lawyer in the prime of life when the miracle occurred.
He was 28 years of age. In his 1960 deposition he explains:

“There were many persons there, but I felt alone. I was suddenly dominated by the expectation of the great event which the children had foretold so that ‘Everyone might believe.’ I saw the children arrive, saw them kneel down, and was gripped by the impressive silence which fell upon us. It is as real to me now as it was at that moment.”
“Did you have any idea of what was going to happen?”
“No, I did not have the slightest idea of what might happen. But now, waiting, I did believe that the sign which the children predicted was going to take place. I heard, while the children were talking to the vision, persons around me remark about different things they saw. But I saw nothing unusual.”
“What time was it that the children started to talk to the vision?”
“It might have been at solar noon, or a few moments later.”
“When the people began to shout, did you see anything unusual?”
“I saw the sun, as if it were a ball of fire, begin to move in the clouds. It had been raining all morning and the sky was full of clouds, but the rain had stopped. It lasted for several seconds, crushingly pressing down upon us all. Wan faces, standing here, from every side great ejaculations, acts of contrition, of the love of God. An indescribable moment! We feel it. We remain dominated by it. But it is not possible to describe it.”
“Did the message of Fatima and the Miracle of the Sun affect others who saw it?”
“What I saw at Fatima could not help but affect my interior life and I am sure that all who saw the Miracle, or even heard about it, cannot fail to be impressed by its greatness... I still remember it today as vividly as at the moment it happened, and I feel myself dominated by that extraordinary event seen on the 13th of October, 1917, at Fatima. I am not alone. All of Portugal has been deeply affected.”


The deposition of the Baron of Alvaiazere’s sister, Maria Celeste da Camara e Vasconcelos, who, at the time of the miracle was on the old road with relatives and friends overlooking the Cova:

“Did you think anything might happen, Madame?” we asked.
“I expected that all was a fancy of the poor children and that we would see nothing.”
“What happened?”
“The sun began to spin with circles of every color. It was like a wheel of fireworks, and coming down to the ground.”
“What was your reaction?”
“Stupefied.”
“Did you think it a miracle?”
“Yes, there was something supernatural.”
“Did you know of anyone there who did not see the miracle?”
“No.”



Deposition from José Joaquim da Assunção who was 71 years old in 1960 and living in Montelo. At the moment of the miracle he was standing fairly close to the place of the apparitions where the fountain is now located. He was with several acquaintances:

“The sun began spinning as though in a sort of a box. All the people cried: ‘It comes down! It comes down!’ The colors of things seemed different.”
“How were you dressed, José?”
“I was not dressed in a special way. Just as usual. It was raining.”
“And were you dry afterward?”
“The sun began to come down and all were quickly dried.”


Deposition from Mr. Higino Faria, who lived in Oakland, California in 1960. In 1917 Mr. Faria lived in Olaia,
seven miles from Fatima:

“Caravans of people were passing in front of the house, clothed in every possible fashion, many without shoes, many from distant places, like Alentejo and Algarve. I was sick with a severe cold and hoarseness, and I asked, ‘Where are these people going?’ When I learned that they were going because of a predicted miracle, even though I was sick, I wished to go. Having no other means, I went on foot. My wife was very disturbed and said, ‘What are you going to do? Don’t you know you are going to aggravate the state of your health?’”
Mr. Faria left his house at nine o’clock in the morning. By the time he reached the top of the mountain at Fatima: “We became victims of a heavy rain which wet our clothing and made us very cold.”
“When I arrived at eleven o’clock, I was surprised at the great number of people on the slope of the hill. Completely wet, dirty and frozen, we waited. At one o’clock the clouds gathered into a very thick and dark form, giving the appearance of an eclipse. At that moment I looked at the multitude and had the impression that it was the day of final judgment. The faces of the people looked thin, long and yellow. Then the dark cloud broke into parts, and through the break we saw the sun shining, spinning in the shape of a wheel of fire. It seemed to approach the earth...Everyone was dried, cleaned. I who was sick, returned completely cured. In thanksgiving for such a great grace and my cure, I promised to recite the Rosary every day of my life.”


The testimony of Mario Godinho, a member of an important and distinguished Portuguese family. He decided after many, many years to give his testimony after reading an appeal which we was made through the newspapers in Portugal in preparation for the book, "Meet the Witnesses". This comes from a man who was completely skeptical, and only went to Fatima that day because he had an automobile and his mother and other members of the family wanted him to take them:

“I saw in a clear area of sky (where one should not be able to stare at the sun) the very sun. It was like a disc of smoked glass illuminated behind and turning over itself, giving us the impression that it was coming down over our heads. I could then see the sun more easily than I can see the moon on a full moon night. From those hundreds of mouths I heard words of belief and of love to the Blessed Virgin. And then I believed. I was sure I had not been the victim of suggestion. I saw that sun as I never saw it again.”


Dona Maria Teresa Charters, another prominent living witness, is from one of the most distinguished families of Leiria. She was 26 years of age and was in the Cova with several relatives.

“We distinctly saw the sun, without harm to the eyes. The sun came down, turning on itself, and throwing beams of several colors.”
“Were you afraid?”
“I thought we were all to die, but I was not afraid.”


Testimony from Augusto Pereira dos Reis of Amoreira, who also was 26 years old, and was standing on the outskirts of the crowd where the Basilica now rises:

“I saw the sun coming down, spinning,”
“Did you experience anything else?”
“Yes, my clothes were first wet, and then dry.”
“How did you feel when it was over?”
“I felt more calm.”
“Did you know of anyone who did not see it?”
“No.”
“And why do you think it happened?”
“In order that we believe more that Our Lady had appeared there.”


Testimony in 1960 from Antonio Antunes de Oliveira who was 32 years old at the time of the miracle. He had been to the Cova even before the day of the miracle because he was a friend of the uncle of two of the children:

“Did you believe that a miracle took place?”
“At first I did not believe.”
“Was it raining very much?”
“Yes, it rained much. I was wet. There was a great deal of mud.”
“What did you see?”
“I looked at the sun. It did not hurt my eyes... There were many people kneeling in the mud, and I was with them.
“Were you far from the children?”
“Yes, I was far from the children, and could only see them when they were taken up in the arms of some people. One of these people was Joao Machado, who had no faith.”
“What else did you see?”
“I looked at the sun and saw it spinning like a disc, rolling on itself. I saw the people changing color. They were stained with the colors of the rainbow. Then the sun seemed to fall down from the sky.”
“Were you afraid?”
“I was afraid that the sun would fall down as the people said that the world was going to end.”
“Was everyone around you afraid?”
“They were afraid and screaming.”
“And what did they say about it?”
“They said it was a miracle.”
“What did you think?”
“I thought it was a great miracle.”
“Did this affect your life?”
“I now go to Fatima almost every month, and continue to have always the same faith.”


Another farmer who was standing in this same part of the crowd where the Basilica has been built, is Manuel Francisco. He was 27 years of age and was standing in the crowd with his wife:

“The sun began to come down until it seemed we were almost near it, and it threw beams of light. It was getting dark and all the people screamed.”
“How did you feel?”
“I was so afflicted that I came home weeping.”
“But what did you do immediately after the miracle?”
“I went to say some prayers close to the spot where the vision appeared, then came home.”
“Were you still weeping?”
“My heart was afflicted. I could not help crying.”


Antonio dos Reis Novo lived near Fatima at Moimenta at the time of his deposition in 1960. He was the same age as Lucia (the eldest of the children). He remembers:

“I was near the children where I could see very well. Lucia was my age, and I was often with her tending the sheep. But I never deserved to see anything.”
“And what happened, Antonio?”
“The sun seemed to become a spin-wheel, rolling very fast and it turned to many colors—very different from usual.”
“How were you dressed?”
“I was dressed something like Francisco, who was my neighbor. I also wore a long cap. He had a quick temper. His brother, Joao, was much milder.”
“How did you feel when you saw the sun spinning?”
“I was filled with such faith, such enthusiasm...”
“Did you expect a miracle to happen?”
“Nobody knew anything about what might happen.”
“Did that miracle influence your life?”
“Yes.”
“Do you know of anyone who was converted by the Miracle?”
“Many people were converted.”
“And what do you think the Miracle meant?”
“Of course, it showed the Power of God.”


Deposition of Father João Gomes Menitra, obtained in 1960:

"I was living at Reguengo do Fetal, about seven miles from Fatima, with my parents. The day before the miracle two couples arrived from Ortigosa looking for a place to spend the night. My father invited them in and also took care of their cart and horse. After I said Mass on that October 13th, the two ladies invited me to go to Fatima with them. I refused at first, but they insisted so much that I decided to go, even though I did not believe in the apparitions. I used to go and say Mass at the Fatima church, but never once did I go to the place where the children claimed to be seeing the visions, although I passed there on the road every Sunday.
On the way up the mountain from Reguengo there were many people on the road—on foot, in carriage, or on bicycles.
It was raining, but no one seemed to think of turn ing back. When we had gotten fairly well up the mountain, the carriage was left and the two couples went down near the place where the children would be, but I remained up near the road, on the outside of the Cova. I was alone. Only the horse and carriage were beside me. I remember thinking that if it rained too much I would get under the carriage. It was about noon when a man from Alentejo came up to me and said: ‘In about a half an hour.” ‘You know more than I do,’ I answered.
But about a quarter of an hour later the people nearest the tree started crying out. Surprised, I looked and saw that the people were in various colors—yellow, white, blue. At the same time I beheld the sun spinning at great speed and very near me. I at once thought: ‘I am going to die!’ I knelt down on some stones and raised my hand, begging the pardon of God for every fault I might have com mitted. A few moments later the sun ceased to spin and went back into its place. I looked at the place and saw a truck beside me in which a man in an overcoat stood crying aloud the words of the creed. And I told myself that I was not the only one to be afflicted...”


Another who was beside the three children is João Carreira, son of Maria da Capelinha, who played an important part in the early history of the apparitions. In his testimony in 1960, Joao says that, with the crowd pressing from all sides, his knees were actually between the feet of Lucia and Francisco:

“What were you doing before the miracle started?”
“We were waiting. When the vision disappeared, Lucia told us to look at the sun.”
“And what did you see?”
“I saw the sun rolling and it seemed as though it were coming down, like the wheel of a bicycle. Then it went back to its place. That’s the way it seemed to me.”
“Were you afraid?”
“I was not afraid. But I heard others crying out: ‘Oh, we are going to die! We are going to die!,’ but I was not afraid.”
“Was there anything else extraordinary?”
“Our clothes were dry in a moment.”
“What did you think was going to happen?”
“Lucia had said that a miracle would happen and we were waiting what might come, but we did not know whether it might be this or that.”
“Did you ever know of anyone there who did not see the miracle?”
“I do not know anyone who says that he had not seen.”
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#12
RE: The undeniable miracle at Fatima
No doubt we can .. and have. Just do a forum search. Too boring to go over all that again.
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#13
RE: The undeniable miracle at Fatima
see, a major problem with that is the Lady of Fatima is 1900 years (m/l) down on the list of shit

THAT STILL NEEDS FUCKING PROVED.


God, Jesus, Apostle Paul, the whole Bible, the crucifixion, you guys need to pony up proof of that first. We're still waiting and folks like the thread starter are way off in the weeds dealing with some really trivial minutia of their faith.

THE BIG TICKET SHIT NEEDS PROVED FIRST.


Post Jesus' Roman Legion draft card or something . . . .
 The granting of a pardon is an imputation of guilt, and the acceptance a confession of it. 




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#14
RE: The undeniable miracle at Fatima
(August 5, 2017 at 6:09 pm)Alex K Wrote:
(August 5, 2017 at 5:03 pm)pabsta Wrote: [size=medium][font=Times New Roman]Just curious what atheists think of the miracle at Fatima in 1917? A quick summary of the facts:

Where do you get these "facts" from?

 
The facts come from the newspaper articles published the following day, plus the published testimonials I mentioned. Plenty available.
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#15
RE: The undeniable miracle at Fatima
(August 5, 2017 at 6:21 pm)pabsta Wrote: C'mon guys, you can do better than just saying "denied".

I technically could, but I've already wasted enough time on this topic. I'm also not wasting time on your giant text wall.
I don't believe you. Get over it.
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#16
RE: The undeniable miracle at Fatima
pabsta, the whole bible is basically testimony. 

Guess what else we find deniable.
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem.
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#17
RE: The undeniable miracle at Fatima
(August 5, 2017 at 5:03 pm)pabsta Wrote: Just curious what atheists think of the hoax at Fatima in 1917? A quick summary of the lies
<snip>

Sorry for changing your post (the bolded bits are the changes), but better to go with accuracy than dogma, don't you think?

To be more thorough, we have a young girl who loves being the centre of attention, has a vivid imagination, is strong willed enough to be able to persuade two others that her "visions" are real and was described by her own mother as the kind of girl who pulled off stunts like that very often. So you've got the vessel.

On top of that you've in an area of a country which is on the cusp of modernism which has low schooling rates and still largely ignorant (which is a lot different than stupid, fyi). Added to that there is the biggest war in history going on at that point and the Spanish flu pandemic (the biggest single medical killing event in history) struck very shortly after. Now you've got the right atmosphere.

And finally you've got a church that's beginning to lose it's grip on the population (despite the lack of education, there were a lot of Portuguese around the turn of the 20th century abandoning the church) and desperate to create something, anything to maintain the grip. So here's the motive (not for the act in this case, young girl wanting attention was that, but for propagating and propagandising it).

The final nail in the coffin though is the "prophesies" themselves. They were not made until 1942 or 1943, thus meaning the first two were predicting events that had already happened, the girl's (now a cosseted nun) two cousins had died in 1919 of the flu, and Hitler (which the church still at this time saw as a saviour) had invaded the USSR. And the third "prophesy" is the other type of prediction, the strange vision full of vague and pretentious language you could make fit to any scenario.

So thus, why I call it a hoax. And that's even before we get into the various impossibilities with the "dancing sun", the fact that only one person ever saw or heard the apparition or how easily it is to scam people into thinking they saw something happen when it didn't (especially so when you tell people to look directly at the sun for long periods of time).
Urbs Antiqua Fuit Studiisque Asperrima Belli

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#18
RE: The undeniable miracle at Fatima
Debunked

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/real_secrets_of_fatima

http://www.miraclesceptic.com/solarmiracle.html


hell even you fellow god bothers call bullshit

http://jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Relig...fatima.htm

Hell even fringe nutters who usually get off to this stuff don't buy it

http://www.philipcoppens.com/fatima.html
Seek strength, not to be greater than my brother, but to fight my greatest enemy -- myself.

Inuit Proverb

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#19
RE: The undeniable miracle at Fatima
In the years surrounding the claims of Fatima 1,000,000 Armenian Christians were slaughtered. Their prayers for mercy went unanswered. How fitting of the Catholic god to instead focus on amusing a few  by making the sun jiggly in the sky. What does your god do for an encore? Bend coins on the pediatric oncology unit?
God thinks it's fun to confuse primates. Larsen's God!






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#20
RE: The undeniable miracle at Fatima
What this particular atheist thinks:


At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist.  This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair.  Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second.  That means there's a situation vacant.'
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