Is religion cause of most wars?

[Jackalope]

Eradicating religion wasn't the goal, it was one of the means by which Stalin consolidated power, which was the goal.

Um I mean, however you want to word it is fine lol. He was trying to build an atheist state, and in doing so, killed tens of millions of religious people, destroyed churches, and took away people's religious rights. Whether he was doing it to try to gain power or whatever, I don't think changes anything. The same argument can be made for some religious wars being a means of seeking power and control through it, but that doesn't change anything.

I didn't make any claims about the latter, I happen to agree.

What's good for the goose, is good for the gander though - if you're going to claim that Stalin's goal was to build an atheist state, and that is why he committed violence (it was not, it was a means to an end), then it's more than a little disingenuous to claim the same sort of violence perpetuated by religious powers wasn't for religious purposes (this also was, IMO often but not always also a means to an end).

[Minimalist]

Probably not but religion is an effective tool for getting the population to do what you want.  Especially if the other side likes a different invisible man in the sky.  The commons can understand that!

[Catholic_Lady]

Um I mean, however you want to word it is fine lol. He was trying to build an atheist state, and in doing so, killed tens of millions of religious people, destroyed churches, and took away people's religious rights. Whether he was doing it to try to gain power or whatever, I don't think changes anything. The same argument can be made for some religious wars being a means of seeking power and control through it, but that doesn't change anything.

I didn't make any claims about the latter, I happen to agree.

What's good for the goose, is good for the gander though - if you're going to claim that Stalin's goal was to build an atheist state, and that is why he committed violence (it was not, it was a means to an end), then it's more than a little disingenuous to claim the same sort of violence perpetuated by religious powers wasn't for religious purposes (this also was, IMO often but not always also a means to an end).

Except I never claimed religious wars aren't for religious purposes. Chad was the one who tried to say the 2 are different, not me.

Thus the USSR became the first state to have as one objective of its official ideology the elimination of existing religion, and the prevention of future implanting of religious belief, with the goal of establishing state atheism (gosateizm).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion...viet_Union

[Jackalope]

I didn't make any claims about the latter, I happen to agree.

What's good for the goose, is good for the gander though - if you're going to claim that Stalin's goal was to build an atheist state, and that is why he committed violence (it was not, it was a means to an end), then it's more than a little disingenuous to claim the same sort of violence perpetuated by religious powers wasn't for religious purposes (this also was, IMO often but not always also a means to an end).

Except I never claimed religious wars aren't for religious purposes. Chad was the one who tried to say the 2 are different, not me.

Thus the USSR became the first state to have as one objective of its official ideology the elimination of existing religion, and the prevention of future implanting of religious belief, with the goal of establishing state atheism (gosateizm).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion...viet_Union

Stalin is not the USSR. Stalin did not establish the USSR.

[The Grand Nudger]

It seems like the religious can never decide between the "you, too" and "no, we never did that, ever" defense of the obvious.

[Catholic_Lady]

Except I never claimed religious wars aren't for religious purposes. Chad was the one who tried to say the 2 are different, not me.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion...viet_Union

Stalin is not the USSR. Stalin did not establish the USSR.

He was the dictator of the USSR, continuing on the work of building an atheist state by killing religious folks. Successor of the man who did establish it.

[Jackalope]

Stalin is not the USSR.  Stalin did not establish the USSR.

He was the dictator of the USSR, continuing on the work of building an atheist state by killing religious folks. Successor of the man who did establish it.

Right, but if we're going to talk about the motivations of Stalin, it does little good to talk about the founding of the USSR because the system fundamentally changed in 1924 when Stalin took power.

Stalin's goal was not an atheist state. Stalin's goal was a Marxist-Leninist state, which yes, did include atheism and persecution of the Russian Orthodox Church. Stalin persecuted *anyone* who opposed his lust of power. Atheism was simple a means to end - which was not atheism per se, the point of pushing for an atheist state was to remove the church as a competing power base. He killed *anyone* who might stand in his way.

Power was the goal.

You're ignoring a host of other factors that undermine your assertion that the atheist state was the goal. You're effectively asserting that Marxism-Leninism is equivalent to atheism, it is not, and to do so is both a category error and a fallacy of composition/division.

[Catholic_Lady]

Im not exactly sure what exactly you are arguing with here. I never said marxism-leninism is "equivalent to atheism". (Though it does promote atheism as a fundamental tenant). Anyway, that's the second time now you've accused me of saying something I didn't say.

Stalin was an atheist man who persecuted and killed non atheist people so that his country would be atheist. This is no different from a religious leader who killed those who were not of his religion so that his country would be of that religion. Of course, they are both seeking power and those killings are a means to gain power.

Chad tried to differentiate the 2, and that doesn't fly.

[Minimalist]

Thus the USSR became the first state to have as one objective of its official ideology the elimination of existing religion

Incorrect.  The French Revolution had the same idea over a century earlier.  Granted, they got it for the same reason that the Russians did.  As in France, the Church was arm-in-arm with the ruling class to oppress the peasants.

Even Jefferson understood the principle.

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814

[Catholic_Lady]

He was the dictator of the USSR, continuing on the work of building an atheist state by killing religious folks. Successor of the man who did establish it.

Stalin's goal was not an atheist state.  Stalin's goal was a Marxist-Leninist state, which yes, did include atheism and persecution of the Russian Orthodox Church.

Ah, hadn't caught this part.

So yeah, my bad. Stalin wasn't an atheist man who's goal was an atheist state, he was an atheist man who's goal was a Marxist-Leninist state which was atheist, and persecuted and killed religious folks to attain it. As you said.